Justice Then, Justice Now
This podcast explores the American criminal justice system from all angles, including perspectives from: law enforcement, prosecution, inmates, fugitives and everything in between.
Justice Then, Justice Now
Ep 16: Bob Starkman - From Narcotics Agent to Basketball Mentor
Join us on Justice Then Justice Now as we bring you the captivating life of Robert Starkman. Bob takes us through his early career in a maximum-security prison, his dogged determination during the 1980s narcotics crisis, and his unforgettable encounters with notable figures like Joseph Pistone, a.k.a. Donnie Brasco. His stories aren’t just thrilling; they’re a testament to his ironclad commitment to integrity and safety in law enforcement.
Bob’s journey to law enforcement in Florida is one for the books—starting with a fortuitous phone call that led to an unexpected opportunity. From his early assignments and surprising connections to iconic mentors and the adventures of undercover operations, Bob shares the highs and lows of his career. He recounts memorable experiences, like overcoming his aversion to boats, navigating Miami’s unique culture, and the profound influence of supervisors who shaped his path. Bob's reflections offer a rare glimpse into the camaraderie and challenges faced by law enforcement agents in the field.
But there’s more to Bob than just his badge. Transforming his passion for basketball into a successful coaching career, Bob’s stories from the court are as compelling as his law enforcement tales. From playing in legendary New York courts to coaching youth in Florida, his dedication shines through. Hear how his coaching philosophy, deeply influenced by his law enforcement background, has made a lasting impact on his players. Whether it’s high-stakes operations or strategizing on the basketball court, Bob Starkman’s life lessons are sure to inspire and entertain.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
Today we have another edition of Justice Then Justice Now. Our guest today is a longtime friend of mine, robert Startman. I've known Bob since I first came to Customs in 1988. He is retired as a senior special agent. He has great stories and a unique perspective on law enforcement and basketball. Bob's written a book. It's called Inside Both Courts. I've read the book. It's fantastic. He's got great pictures of the 80s with people that I worked with in Miami and also seizures made of the narcotics reign of terror that occurred back then. His book the Forward is by Joseph Pistone.
Speaker 1:Now for our listeners they don't know who that is If you've seen the movie Donnie Brasco. Joe was the FBI agent that infiltrated the mob in New York and was about to be a made man when they did the takedowns. He's a great guy. He teaches to this day undercover techniques and Bob is very close with the cops and the agents over the years. I'm going to let him explain his background and the unique perspective about him. He is a championship basketball coach and you know, in this flamboyant style of anybody coming from New York that coaches basketball, anybody coming from New York that coaches basketball, a sports fan, somebody that I trust when he gives you his word. His word is there and that's the most important thing in law enforcement. Many times us in law enforcement see people fall by the wayside due to politics and due to other things. Bob's a stand-up guy, so it's my pleasure to welcome Robert Starkman to Justice. Then Justice, now, bob, how are you?
Speaker 2:Good, good Thanks, jeff. Thanks Toby. It's funny when I hear Robert. I look around because only two people call me Robert my wife and Miles. So I get nervous, you know when I Anyhow, no, that's good. I appreciate you having me on. It's an honor to be on your show.
Speaker 1:Thank you If you could, if you could tell and I wanted you to mention too that you actually started out in corrections, I think, which is important because you deal with prisoners and I think, as an agent or a police officer, the safety factor is number one. You want to be able to come home to your wife and kids and other activities that you have, and over the years we both have seen people that don't pay attention to that. We'll talk about that later. But if you could give your background and starting out with that, and then how you ended up in Florida, and we'll lead in and I'll occasionally jump in and ask questions that the viewers may not understand, and I'd like to also get into the basketball part of it. I find that fascinating. You've had a very successful, you have a wonderful wife and a very successful family and that. So, bob, all yours.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I was born in the Bronx, raised in Queens, went to school in California. One year I played ball out there, transferred back to New York, played three more years at York College. I really didn't know what I wanted to do and we used to rent summer homes out in the Hamptons for this, you know, during the summer a whole bunch of my friends and I remember one morning I picked up the parade section, which I think is called the color section and I saw this. The cover was New York City's most decorated detective. I was this guy, ralph Friedman. There's a picture of him grabbing this perp and kind of bring him in. I read the story. I'm like this is pretty cool. So it kind of gave me a little you know, initiative to go out and maybe start taking police tests, which I started doing with a lot of my friends.
Speaker 2:This was in the 70s Now. I remember the fiscal problem in New York was pretty bad back then, so I took every test. It was funny. Like I said, I always wanted to be a city cop. After reading that article when I took that test I actually got a 93, and it was a failure. 94 was the cutoff and I never got a 93 in my life on anything you know. So you know it happened. But at the same time I was taking every other test. So I took state correction, city correction, marshals, you name it. I took it and in 1980, well, 79, I was a bouncer in a club and I guess that was my prerequisite for getting called to be a correction officer. I got called to work for the state. Actually I got called once in between a strike, but there was no way I was going to go up there and, you know, jump a picket line when these guys eventually I'd be working with. So I waited.
Speaker 2:I'm back in July 25th, exactly 1980. I remember calling my house and I would call every day before cell phones get on the pay phone I'd call my brother, wake him up. Hey, the mail come, the mail come. And on that day he said yeah, you just got something from state correction in Albany. I said great, open it up. Basically it said I don't know what day it was, probably it was a Thursday or Friday. That Monday I had to report to Albany where the state academy is. So I went up there and basically I was only there for two days. We were called two day wonders. They never had that in the history of correction. We're in the academy for two days. Come back home. I'll never forget. On Friday and Monday morning I had to report to Greenhaven, which was a pretty bad jail as a max a. It was a rough jail.
Speaker 2:Now, as you know, I'm a pretty big guy. I actually was bigger back then and if anybody ever says they weren't scared walking into a jail, they're lying. So the first day we go in it was like a James Cagney movie. They had, I guess, their SWAT team, sert team, which was like correction and emergency response team, and had these orange jumpsuits on. And you know I laugh because you know like this kind of reminds me of the initial wet team with customs. You know, guys are pretty short. I'm not saying they weren't tough or good, but I'm looking at these guys with bats. You know hats and bats and they're ready to go. I'm like the biggest guy in there.
Speaker 2:Anyhow, I'm walking and it was like, like I said, like a movie from James Cagney. There was mattresses burning in the yard. It was definitely scary and I never forget I was walking with this girl. They had us in twos and it was Diana Pappas and she was a really good-looking young lady and I remember the inmates were screaming some vulgar things out the window, and she turns to me, she goes, are they saying that to me? I said they sure as hell are not saying that to me, so you could just imagine what was being said. So, anyhow, we went in there and, to be honest with you, I had second thoughts. I'm like what am I doing? And you know, with no training, just probably just my background, growing up in New York, you know, and I was joking, I said being a, b the tests.
Speaker 2:He actually got hired, probably close to a year before me, and there he was what they call packing an inmate. You know, they take the, they're packing him up, they take his mattress, they throw all this crap in there, they roll it up and it's a pack of cigarettes rolled in his sleeve. And Carl's a big dude and he's smoking a cigarette Right, and my nickname was Stitch. I don't know if I ever told you that. No, you didn't. And all of a sudden, well, it was my father's name and my buddies adopted it for me. So all of a sudden he turns around, he looks at me, he goes Stitch, what's up? I'm like this is going to be fun. Fast forward.
Speaker 2:I worked there for a couple of months Before I even went to the academy. I was in charge of a cell block. Now you could just imagine there was, I think, 1900 inmates there. Most of them at the time were probably doing double life sentences. So it was a great. You know, experience learning.
Speaker 2:I went back to the academy sometime in January just for two weeks. Really, what are they going to teach you? You know you're in a max jail other than the law and you know maybe firearm techniques or whatever. They can't teach anything else. I'll tell you that. And then that February I get called for city correction. But I already was engaged and it was great because now I can move back to the city, because I was living upstate. I can go back to the city and city correction paid about five thousand more to start. Back to the city and city correction paid about 5,000 more to start. So I was very lucky.
Speaker 2:Here again, I'm in the academy five days and I get called out. So here I am, figuring I'm in trouble. I'm like, what did I do? I'm only here five days. Basically, they called out five of us that had prior state time and they put us right into a facility. I went to the Queen's house, somebody went to the Brooklyn house, the Bronx house, which usually takes years to get there or you have to have a good rabbi, and I had neither of them. And it was funny because the night before, two days before that, I was driving. I remember saying to my wife Jill I said, yeah, it's going to take me 15 years to get there, and then after the weekend I get assigned there.
Speaker 2:So I worked there for about a year, year and half, and while I was there I was assigned to the special housing units. I had all the celebrity cop killers, as they're called. I had the two black liberation army guys, james nixon york and, uh, anthony laborde the scary dudes. So just one cell was then upstairs. I had cops that got locked up snitches.
Speaker 2:Back then. They actually had transgenders or whatever they called them back then in the 80s, and it was really weird because like, on one level you have, you know, cops that got locked up and they really can't go into general population, and on the other level I have cop killers, you know, of course they didn't intermingle. So I did that for a while and then I got called, I put in. You know, I put in for every job, and I put in for every job and I put in for deputy sheriff and I had seen it in the Civil Chief. I used to read that every. I think it used to come out on Thursdays or Tuesdays and I saw that New York City had oh no, no, that's not what happens. I forgot, I never heard of that. I thought I'd heard of every job. And one day I'm working at Sally Port and these two guys come in and they have a prisoner and they flash a badge.
Speaker 1:It looks like a detective just kind of one thing the sally port for the listeners is where they're. Yeah, yes, I'm sorry yeah.
Speaker 2:So what happened was they flash a badge. And the one thing I always learned that correction, and especially living in new york, anybody could have a badge. So I said yeah. I said you know sheriffs. I said where you know nassau suffolk, they go new york, I go. Where you know sheriffs. I said where you know Nassau Suffolk, they go New York, I go. Where you know Sullivan County, they go New York City, I go New York City has a sheriff's office. I thought that I knew every job that was out there. And lo and behold, they said listen, we have an opening. Why don't you put a resume together? Now, you know, it was the old days. You know the little typewriters.
Speaker 1:I think my outfit Triple carbon. We all remember that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Right, exactly yeah. And if it slips, the ink stains.
Speaker 1:White out on your desk.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what happened was, see, they were responsible for civil prisoners and in the area where I had the cops that got locked up, the snitches and the others, there was also civil prisoners. So I took that job. I said, hey, it was a best kept secret, I knew I wasn't going to stay there, you know it. Just, it was the same pay as the uniformed services, you know, corrections, fire, police. So it's a no brainer, probably the worst job I've ever had. Basically, I was a glorified process server with a gun, you know, even though it was a stage, a city job. So I stayed there for a while and, uh, as you know me well, I always. You know, we joke around a lot and I do funny things.
Speaker 2:So my friend call one day I was, uh, I was looking in the back of the, uh, the new york post. They have this like barbizon school of beauty. So I fill it out. His name is call anthony terrasano. I put caller, like he's a girl. Oh, my, I know, I send it out, and they call on his house. Oh, we understand, caller. They call him caller. So he had gotten me back. He had a letter that he got called for border patrol. He kind of changed it around, but you could see the whiteout. You knew it wasn't legit.
Speaker 2:But lo and behold, I come back from vacation and I'm sitting in the sheriff's office and my phone rings. Now at the time I think there was only like 28 sheriffs in the city. They're up to over 300. They're uniform. Now it's changed. So the phone rings and some lady said, hey, I'm so, and so from us customs, uh, your name came up, or whatever. I go call, stop effing with me. I do this call. Like messing with me. I'm like, hey, stop effing with me. I'd do it with Carl, like messing with me. I'm like, hey, stop effing with me, because I totally forgot about the customs job that I put in and it was for the Customs Patrol Officer, cpo.
Speaker 1:Can I stop you?
Speaker 2:for a minute.
Speaker 1:I have some questions. First of all, ralph Friedman's been on. He's terrific, he's a legend. He's a cop's terrific, he's a legend, he's a. He's a cop's cop, he's. He's unbelievable. He's got a Gregorius personality and it was a real pleasure. So your interest in law enforcement. I'm sure you wanted to be a WNBA player as a kid.
Speaker 2:WNBA is women. That's number one WNBA. Matt, I justBA.
Speaker 1:I kind of knew when did you want to be a cop?
Speaker 2:that's what I'm asking yeah, I want to be a cop. You know, it's like it's just something I wanted to do and I had a lot of friends who had friends that were cops, but again in the 70s, you know, they weren't hiring right, they were laying off.
Speaker 1:They were laying off.
Speaker 2:I'm saying you know what I'm going to take the first job that comes and just get to what I want. You know where I want to be okay.
Speaker 1:So you got the phone call from customs and what did they tell?
Speaker 2:you, uh, you know, your name came up, uh, for employment, and I turn around like I said call, get the f out of here, don't f with me. I just got back from vacation and all of a sudden there's like a pause in the phone call and she says listen, I'm going to tell you again. My name is not call, I'm so and so from you know personnel and we'd like you to come interview. So I'm like, okay, how about next week? She says, how about tomorrow? I'm like I'm dead, I'm never getting this job.
Speaker 2:You know, after what I said, yeah so, lo and behold, next day I find a suit. I think I had one from you know, like when I used to go to bar mitzvahs and stuff and weddings with the white, white collar and the big tie yeah, yeah, I had those two you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyhow, I uh, I show up and I'm like nervous as hell only because of you know what I, what I said. I walk in, the lady comes out, she goes listen, I'm not your friend, call relax. So right there, I knew I was okay. So I go through the interview and one of the questions they said to me was hey, you don't have any investigative experience. I said, well, you know, in the sheriff's office I did a lot of you know, I was able to elaborate a little. But I said but here's the thing, I worked in a max jail and I worked in a city jail with all cop killers. You know everybody's innocent. Just ask them. You learn body language, you learn the lingo, you learn different things. You know you learn a lot about them. You know which. Most investigators don't have that experience and you know it went. So now I'm walking out and this guy comes up to me, a short, older fellow, and he says to me how's Stitch? I go, excuse me, he goes. How's Stitch, dad, right, he's talking about me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, nobody knows. Yet I'm like how the hell does he know?
Speaker 2:I never put that on the OD-171, my father's nickname. So it turns out he calls me over on the side. He grew up with my father. They used to play basketball together him, the brother and my father all went off to war, world War II. His brother never came back. He was a retired detective. His name was Gus Gersey. My father probably didn't speak to him in I don't know 30 years and he saw the name. He saw the application and he called me over on the side. And he saw the name, he saw the application and he called me over on the side and he said listen, you know, I kind of felt really comfortable and I know my father hasn't spoken to me, he hasn't never mentioned that name to me. It wasn't like he made a phone call and you know, he just kind of told me about the job and whatever. And a week later I'm in there, you know, filling out a little paperwork and I got hired October 3rd.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what happened from then on? How did you get to South Florida?
Speaker 2:Okay, so October 3rd we couldn't go to the academy until January. I think second or whatever it was, you know, because there's no class, but being I had prior law enforcement, so was a few other guys that you know got hired. They let us go to the range and qualify. Basically we stayed at the airport. Uh, you know just helping out. You know doing secondaries. I actually went on two control deliveries before I even came out. You know the academy. And then, uh, I got to be friends with bobby benevente in the academy. I met him and he was in florida at the time and he was really nice. He was an agent school. He actually used to be a cpo as well and his son is an agent too.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I heard, yes, I heard, yeah. So, uh, what happened was we were just uh talking. He goes listen. If you ever want to come to florida, you call me okay, you know, you know the way most people are yeah, okay, so they had us on this undercover operation.
Speaker 2:We lived out in Montauk, you know, nick Jacobellis, jim O'Rourke and it was one other guy, kenny Coz, and a couple of guys. We were only CPOs. You know, we weren't agents yet and you know, looking back I'm like something's wrong. You know, I spoke to friends that were older than me that had worked undercover and different things.
Speaker 2:Just they weren't ready for what they were doing. And they weren't, and that's just the way it was. So what I did was I told Benevente, listen, I'm going to come down there one weekend, I want to see what it's like. And Nick, myself and this guy, kenny Koza, came down on our own and I remember we went to was that Papa 100? You know where? The CPOs?
Speaker 1:Sure right across from the Hyatt.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, holiday Inn it used to be, I think yeah. So we went down there and he took us around. He introduced us to Al Westerman, who was the chief of patrol, and it was really funny. I always remember this, going down on the dock, you know, downstairs, and the smell of marijuana. I thought I was in like in a college dorm, like, and the smell of marijuana. I thought I was in like in a college dorm, you know like it was just reeking because they used to keep diseased marijuana down there.
Speaker 2:And I see this guy on a boat, an unmarked boat towing in a boat, with a guy in handcuffs and two or three barrels. I'm like what the hell is that? So the guy comes in. It happened to be Joe Goulet and what he did was he caught some guy out in the ocean. He was waiting to refill you know a dope boat. I said, man, this is cool, you know anyhow.
Speaker 2:So we went down there and I don't even think I told my wife, I just told her how we went to Al Westerman's office. He said, listen, this is what I could do for you If you could come down by August, whatever the last week of August. Basically, it was like getting a scholarship as a CPO. That doesn't happen. I was a GS-5. Paid my house hunting trip, paid my closing fees and I wanted 30 or 60 days temporary quarters. So Al said they brought us in. Just before you were there they had this small boat reporting stations with the inspectors. I said Al, listen, I don't think I called him Al then but I told him listen, I can't go on boats. I said I get nauseous. I said the only boat I don't get sick on is the Circle on the New Yorker.
Speaker 1:You know the big boat that goes around. I've swam next to that boat.
Speaker 2:I know you have, I know, and I said I just can't do it. You know it's just don't worry, okay. So whatever Benevente did for me, he did the right thing and I got assigned to the FIS team, which was the group to be in. You know, we're all CPOs. Jim Larrison and Val Jorge were the super. They were the SCPOs. I'll never forget the first day I get down there. Nick and I we had to go to the range and qualify. It was like 105 degrees. I never shot a machine gun in my life. It was the first time I shot a machine gun. And then we came back. You remember the from the range. I don't think the sack office. Oh yeah, I'm not sure if the sack office is there. Remember the Cuban place on 58? There, actually, artie Cullen ended up marrying the girl there, el Faro.
Speaker 1:It's still there, el Faro Right, and I saw Artie about two years ago at the Cuban the one across from Coral Gables High. School and I went in For an ATF. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:It was the bus boy. Good, good, great guy, so anyhow. So I see, like the Gatorade bar, you know the Gatorade thing on the shelf and so I said, man, I'd watch Miami Vice, I'm going to order a Cuban coffee. I take the Cuban coffee, take the water. Here I am thinking I'm cool. I had the runs for the next week and then went to work the next day, showed up and this is one of the greatest things, and I don't know too many bosses that would have ever done it. They definitely wouldn't do it. Now, hands me a set of keys. He says to me and Nick, listen, go out, learn Miami, I'll see you in a week. Unbelievable. And we went out, went to the ports, went along the river, drove around, did everything, and then I started working there, trial by fire that's what it was.
Speaker 2:And that was good.
Speaker 1:That's the way to do it. You know the one thing that I remember Joe Goulet was great, because for a while I was the training officer, as you know, and Joe would come in and teach Blue Lightning and me. I wasn't on a customs boat, so he would come in, but Joe would have. We'd have pictures of the Santeria chickens that were thrown against the boats. You know what I'm talking about, for those people not from Miami.
Speaker 1:It's an Afro Catholic religion where they they try to protect themselves with this and they would throw the chickens and leave it next to the boats to not have dope picked up at sea. Okay, I just wanted to add that, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. That's supposed to keep the cops away, you know, when they're trying to send three to boot. So then I'm working for Penevente funny for a while, and then I go on vacation to New York my wife was finishing college. I go up there, I come back and now I find out Group 8, now it's called Group 8. It's the old, you know, fisk Group 8. And there's a new boss, wayne Roberts.
Speaker 2:I don't know Wayne from a hole in the wall. I just heard they called him the Rocket man when he was in Greenback. The way he worked, you know, like a rocket, nonstop. Evidently. I guess he handpicked a lot of us. He called me in his office and it's funny what he said to me I still use today when I coach. He called me and he goes listen, I don't know you, but I'm going to tell you one thing Don't ever lie to me. I'll go to the wall for you. If you lie to me, I'm going to throw you off the wall. And that was like the great and I lived by that even with basketball. To this day, even in the high school, I help out. I tell the kids that. So that group, we were just kicking ass. I don't think anybody was doing what we were doing.
Speaker 1:And we were all CPOs.
Speaker 2:That was like 85, 86. I think I want to say November of 86, I got selected for agent and they were making a conversion and we're making CPOs and then to agent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I went to agent school, came back, uh, work for Wayne. I mean, with the time, you know, in the 80s we had the time of our life and I learned so much from him, you know, just oh, wayne Roberts was a master of developing informants and that was and he actually I was in an adult group but he helped me with some of the banking through his connections he was a wonderful supervisor.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to say that go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, but he knows the job and he taught us. You know, I know he got jammed up over jealousy and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1:Of course Always happens, yes.
Speaker 2:So now I'm there I don't know a year or two, I don't even know how long Wayne gets promoted back to greenback. He said to me just hang out, just lay low. And then Woody Kirk took over our group and Woody was a good boss too. So Wayne told me listen, just lay back, I'm going to get you over to Greenback and that's where you get your 13. And that was the days where it was competitive, not one, you know, you didn't get wanted in.
Speaker 2:I had to put in for it because the person so, anyhow, I go to Greenback and I'll never forget this. So I'm like Wayne, you know, how does this work here? Like you know. Like how does this work here? Like you know what are you using informants? And I have no idea about money law. I know a little bit because we did some cases in Group A. You know little spin-offs. I said, like, how do you get into these people? He said we have this new dog. I said you have a new dog. He goes yeah, it's the Jewish setter, the money dog. He's like he was messing with me, yeah, so I remember that. And then then that was just, that was great. Greenback was so much fun. And then I don't know, if you remember, I'm the one that got the local cops assigned. I got broward sheriffs.
Speaker 1:Yep, tommy, okay, all those guys, I actually you talked to him and you oh yeah, I got everybody. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, I started that, which was great, you know, and it was just fun, you know. Know, I started that, which was great, you know, and it was just fun, you know, and I had a blast. And then, you know, wayne got jammed up uh, you know it was bs, I thought, but you know who am I, and uh, then he was suspended for a while, if you remember. Then he, you know everything was back, I believe he went to headquarters, so we were kind of flipping around. I was in a couple of the greenback groups Dave Warren, a few others and then I want to say I landed up in like the Exodus group or something. Oh, no, no, a port group. It was a little different. It wasn't what I was used to working the port, you know, no, running and gunning like what you guys did.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, it was a little different, you know.
Speaker 2:And then I went to, I want to say, the Exodus group for a while. Then I went to the. They put me in the FBI Joint Terrorist Task Force. I was there from before 9-11, during and after, so I think it was about four years. I was there. That was a good assignment. Somebody tried to jam me up and it was just all BS, but that's all right. And then I believe Alex was the ASAC at the time and I asked Alex. I said Alex, listen, I'd like to go to Fort Lauderdale. I'm coming towards retirement. I had my 20 years in it already and it'd be nice. You know I live up north, it'd be nice. So I go there and I get assigned to a group supervisor who had an IA case on me which was all BS and I think that was all over the jealousy of them trying to go after Miles' son and I got called to the grand jury and the case was ruined because I told the truth, so, and I got called to the grand jury and the case was ruined because I told the truth.
Speaker 2:So now I'm working for this guy and life is miserable, like you know. I'm getting treated like a, you know, like a new agent. But I don't say nothing. You know I don't say a word. Next thing, I know I get transferred to 79th Street, which is the punishment group after the merger. Yeah, and if?
Speaker 1:I was there, I was there.
Speaker 2:Were you? Okay, you weren't the one, so I believe I came to work for you. You did.
Speaker 1:But I think there was somebody for you, right?
Speaker 2:And then were you there when we moved out to like by that of 183rd and by Tootsie's over there, whatever that place is. Remember there was an office there. Oh, no, no, no, you were gone. You were gone. I worked for you.
Speaker 1:I was there when we had people around the block and dunking donuts across the street and all that. Yeah, right, right, right.
Speaker 2:Okay. So then I worked for you, which was fine, still wasn't, I don't mean you, but it wasn't what we used to do. But there was a change Once that merger came to me. It was just a total different job and you know, then I landed up going to oh when I was transferred to the airport. Based on my experience at the airport, which I never worked, I was transferred to the airport, if you remember, A response group, which is normally for new agents. You know, sometimes they think they were punishing me At the end of my career. They weren't, which is normally for new agents. You know, sometimes they think they will punish me. I'm at the end of my career. They weren't, which is fine.
Speaker 2:You know, I did my job, did what I had to do and you know, several times, because I started coaching in college, it was part time, from 97 actually, just to a couple of years ago and you know there was a lot of jealous guys and, as you know, they said that I'm working full time. When I'm an agent I'm not at work. And you know I never did that. You know it was. It was just. You know it was aggravating. But if you know you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide, but you always have that fear in the back of your head. You don't know who they're really going to believe. And again, there was nothing. Nothing there, so I did that. Then one night we were on a controlled delivery at the airport. I thought it was pretty bad. I thought I was going to get shot and you could read about it in my book. I don't want to feel like I don was.
Speaker 2:I went home that night. It was so bad I went home that night Probably was the longest ride I've ever taken, when, in fact, at a late hour at night to my house it was probably 30 minutes, it seemed like 10 hours and I got on the computer and I started pulling out my paperwork and I put it in and that was, I don't know, during the summer and then I retired that January.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know, oh, you had a I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:The only thing I forgot to tell you was really weird. When I was at the CPO Academy, I was on the phone with my wife, Jill, and, uh, I remember her telling me I was three days from graduating. You have to spend a three and a half months down there. I remember her telling me that I just got a letter from NYPD. My name got called off another list and I'm like you know what I don't like school. I just spent three and a half months in Glencoe, Georgia. I'm not taking it, and you know what Things worked out for the better.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's strange. Like I left DC and I came to Florida and I was my ex-wife, was hired and I was, like in sports, a player to be named later. You know, that's exactly how.
Speaker 1:I got hired player to be named later. I don't know if you remember one of the incidents we had at 79th which you brought to my attention. You came in and we talked in the office and you said, oh, there's some guys from IA around the building and I said what? So I went out and I recognized them and they had a line. So they did this to me and we went over to Dunkin' Donuts and I said what's going on? I mean you got three guys that I recognize here at the building.
Speaker 1:He said pornography. And I go what do you mean pornography? And they said oh, this is in the early days of the internet, like 2004 or 2003. They said there's a show called 8th street latinas and I said it's on the internet. And they what they do is they pick women out of the line to get immigration paperwork and they pretend like they can get them papers and they go to a hotel and then nothing happens. And I said you've got to be kidding me. I said yeah, so they were all out and they had a complaint with this. It was all fictitious, obviously, but again, I remember calling everybody in and saying you're going to see some faces that you may recognize. Just leave it alone, and that that you may recognize. Just leave it alone, you know, and that. So eventually I called the SAC, who I was probably not on good terms with.
Speaker 2:I can't remember who, because Alex was the ASAC.
Speaker 1:So that was in what 03-04?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, no, no, when I was there, maybe 05.
Speaker 1:Was it.
Speaker 2:Clark, maybe I don't know, it had to be Jesus.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to say his name on this, so anyway, that blew over, but it was kind of entertaining that, that was going on and nobody had called us, because it didn't involve agents.
Speaker 2:It was something else we could have assisted on. Okay.
Speaker 1:So I know your career. I know the supervisors you had, wayne and Woody. They were fantastic. They made cases.
Speaker 1:They put dope on the table. Thank you, they did all this stuff and put it on the map. One of the people that I interviewed yesterday. He was a drug smuggler out of the Keys. You'll see it in an upcoming episode. He got seven life sentences.
Speaker 1:He's released and he detailed how Charlie Jordan was and Charlie Jordan worked for his organization. So I hope you watch that. Charlie Jordan worked for his organization, so I hope you watch that. It's kind of really, really fascinating what modus operandi was with that. But let's get back to you. So tell me about your basketball coaching. It's quite tremendous, you know, and how you did that, and it's a very I think, a very positive thing that a federal agent was able to use his knowledge in that to enhance others. And I know from Facebook and from you that you keep in contact with these guys and ladies and they're all successful. Obviously, we've all played sports and we had that coach that brought us along both as a man or a woman and also as a player. And I think you're playing days. They end, you know, but life goes on and the character that you build up goes forward.
Speaker 2:So tell me a little about the basketball side. Well, I remember my last college game was 1978 against Manhattanville College at Fordham University. I remember that After that I played in some summer leagues, played in a winter league like a citywide YMCA, played at West Fork Street in Manhattan, played out in the Hamptons in Long Island. I played at West 4th Street in Manhattan, played out in the Hamptons in Long Island, and then when I got into law enforcement I really didn't have, you know, time and I kind of lost my interest. I liked watching it but you know I would just play every once in a while in the park when I was still living home, you know, in New York. I mean, come down to Florida. My daughter's probably I don't know seven or eight years old, maybe a little bit younger.
Speaker 1:She wants to play basketball.
Speaker 2:So I take her up to the Coral Springs Rec League and I register her and you know, I see what's going on and I never coached and I never had any dreams about coaching. And now I'm watching. I mean this goes back 30 years ago. My daughter's like 38 now Although I shouldn't have said that on TV she gets mad. But I started coaching because I couldn't stand what was going on. You know, I couldn't stand like it really bothered me that. You know, let's say you pick eight kids on a team and let's say me, me, you and Jeff are really good. So the coach would say, listen, miss your shots, look bad. So this way you'd be like a six, seven and eight pick, but realistically you're probably a one. I'm like, is this really going on?
Speaker 2:So I started coaching and then my two boys were born and I started coaching them and I was going back and forth, back and forth. Uh, I coached, uh even I remember my daughter's I want to say going into high school, five stars, a legendary camp. I worked there just so she could go to camp. You know, we went for a week and I just started. I was really, you know, between both boys and my daughter. I started coaching her and then I put together a little travel team for her just to help her. Once she got into high school I broke away. It was time. You know, you know me very well. I do not have to live my life to my kids. You know, I have a 6'10 son and people would come up to me and they'd say you're a coach, why don't you make your son play? I go listen.
Speaker 2:I don't have to live my life to my son and I will tell you he is very, very successful and he wouldn't have made the money he's making now if he played basketball. My youngest son was a baseball player. He did the same path that his brother did. He became a manager at University of Florida, did it for four years and you know the SEC is big and upon graduation he got interviewed I want to say under Armour, I think, nike and the Atlanta Hawks. He was offered an internship and, fast forward the clock going on 10 years he's now a VP. So they've all done well.
Speaker 2:I think being around sports coaching hopefully had some type of influence on them the way I was. Because you know, one thing I learned from my father my father used to work in the night centers. They used to have that in New York and he worked in the South Bronx. And one thing I learned from my father color doesn't mean anything black, white, chinese, you know, people are people and I've always been that way and I'm very thankful my kids believe the same way, you know, especially in the crazy world we live in. So you know I was coaching and one day Miles calls me up and he says hey, did you see today's Sun Central.
Speaker 2:I said no. He says, go in the you know the classified or whatever. I said, okay, so I go in. And it said Broward College is hiring a women's assistant coach, part-time. He said, put in, I go, really. So I put in, for the hell of it. And next thing I know I get interviewed and I'm the assistant coach. They fired the head coach. Next year I'm the assistant coach again. They fired that coach and they make me the head coach. Now it's a part-time position and at the time I think Broward was the only school maybe in the country where the coaches are not on campus. So you know how hard that is, especially in junior college. And uh, I took over the women's program. I was the women's head coach for two years, so I did four years with the women.
Speaker 2:One day John Giordano, friend of mine, who was, uh, the athletic coordinator it was like a mafia movie training out, he goes come on, let's go to this game. So we went to some high school game. He says I have good news and bad news. I said, OK, well, give me the bad news You're going to be the men's coach. Well, that's not so bad. What's the good news? You're not coaching the women anymore more.
Speaker 2:Okay, and because of my relationships and the friends I have. You know, with no recruiting budget for the most part scholarships are nowhere like the other schools I competed against my friends were able to help me out. You know, like, get me players, that's the bottom line. I mean I had seven, all americans, uh, two or two-timeAmericans. I had the player of the year and they were all sent to me Three. You know all of them, all the guys that made all were sent to me. I didn't even know who they were. So you know, I've always been very loyal.
Speaker 2:The thing with the kids was able to help me coach personally. I think being in law enforcement and vice versa, it helps each other. You know, I used to always equate it to all right, you go out on the drug bust, Okay. If the guy you don't get him, hey, it's like a game, You're lost. Get a better plan, Get a game plan together. Don't cheat, Don't lie in court. Same thing, you know. Get a plan, go out and do it.
Speaker 2:The one thing I learned from a former assistant coachman who passed away years ago, Jay McCormick. He said to me you know what you got to do. You have to have the kids believe that you'll run through a wall. You know, make them run through a wall for you and you'll be right behind them. And I always stood by that. And you know, listen, I always thought if you have a roster of 12 or 13, I always believed I could help every kid and if you help three it's great. And I've never sat aside with just helping three.
Speaker 2:And there's been kids, you know, they can play them all they want, but the kids that are loyal, the kids that, the ones that listen, you know I use my negative experiences as a player, things that happened to me, you know, in the 70s, first of all, your family never really went to a game. They were working. Your family never called up a coach. Why are you not playing my son? There was no portal. You're not transferring like they do now, you just suck it up, you know.
Speaker 2:So I learned. You know, like you know, I went from starting to never playing and I never understood that. And I don't know if I ever told you this, probably about I don't know. 30 years ago I went to this basketball dinner they have it's called the Maternal Order of Basketball, all in New York City. At the time, my father was probably one of the youngest guys there and he was in his late 70s all old New York guys and who walks in? My college coach. So now I'm like okay, do I be a jerk and say something stupid? Do I walk away or am I going to be a better person? I chose to be a better person.
Speaker 1:Always take the high road. You're right about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, you learn, especially as we get older. So I went up to him I said hey, how you doing? Blah, blah, blah. He says fine, turns to my father and says if anybody should hold a grudge against me, it's your son. And that just threw me back. And to this day I don't know why he went that way. And I talk to a lot of my old teammates still and to this day I don't know why you go from starting to not even playing.
Speaker 2:But the one thing I learned is that with my players in college, if you're not playing, come to me, I will tell you what it will take to play. So an example was a kid, david Brown, who's a local kid, went to an NAIA school. I think he sat out. He came to me very good academic, pretty good basketball player. He wasn't playing and he came up to me like the fifth game I remember we were in a tournament at palm beach junior college. He says coach, why aren't I not playing? I said listen, dave, you don't defend that well and you got to play tougher. He says okay, fine, something happened. I don't know if something happened with a player. I put him in. He scored 30, pointsed the hell out of the guy. From that day on he started every game, made junior college All-State in Florida which you know Juco in Florida is some of the best basketball in the country Went on to, I got him hooked into Gardner-Webb, graduated he sent me the nicest letter I've ever gotten from somebody.
Speaker 2:But see, I don't like taking credit for that. This is my attitude. I opened the door, you went through it, I'll open the door for you, but you've got to walk through it and it's the same. You never hear me talk. I got a lot of pretty. You know some good accolades, but you know when I won, let's say, my 100th game, oh, what do you feel about that? Every time I went into the hundreds I would say listen, I don't win games. Players win games. You know.
Speaker 2:You see most coaches yeah, no my job is to get them out there, keep them together, play hard and win Players, win games. I'll argue with anybody, and you know, and I think one of the reasons that I was also successful at Broward is because I did it for the right reason. I was, you know, I was making chicken scratch, part time working. I don't know how I got it done to this day, you know, I just don't know how I did it, but I did it and I think a lot of it is when the kids have trust in you. You know, it happens Like. I'll just tell you one funny story.
Speaker 2:I had some suspicions they were smoking weed which, listen, I don't put up with that. That's for numerous reasons. I have a little shih tzu. My foot was probably as big as my dog. I told him that I went to the apartment and I told him that the dog was a customs dog I borrowed from work because they knew what I did for a living. I had the dog walking around. You remember the canine handlers Find it, find it. I think the apartment was so dirty and stunk. My dog's ears were wiggling, so I got him scared, but it worked. If they were going to do something, yeah. So you know, it was just little things. You have to put a little fear, but you have to also know. You know, know.
Speaker 1:They have to know you after them, and that's what I think was my success it's like the old saying you, you know, you do, you help people because you want to and you expect nothing in return. Um, when I served on the boxing and mma commission, um, I tried to get. I had a lot of people call me and say I'm interested in this, I've interested. So, the ones that were qualified, I referred and they got hired, but I didn't expect anything in return for that. It was just here's a door, like you said, opening it up, and I was opposed to the testing we tried to.
Speaker 1:Well, they did the marijuana testing for fighters. I couldn't imagine getting into a fight on marijuana. I mean, you're going to get knocked out and that's just so. They left it to the doctors to determine that. But anyway, sports is changing and I wanted to talk to you about and we're going to go back to law enforcement. I wanted to talk to you about the internet gambling and the gambling now in sports and in basketball. I know there's been a few instances where there's been point shaving and that. Do you think, as a professional coach, that this is going to have an effect on games with players?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't follow any of that. To be honest with you, I'm not a gambler. I don't follow any of that. However, you know, it's like making marijuana legal Somebody's still going to sell it, somebody's still going to bring it in. So, no matter what bookmakers have been around forever, I don't think that's going to change. You know, I think some player just got jammed up doing some online betting. He wasn't betting on his team. I mean, there's so much out there, they just approve anything, you know. I mean, you know, again, I'm not really, you know, I don't follow that because I I'm, I don't enjoy gambling, you know, I just don't, you know, so I don't really know too much about it.
Speaker 1:Okay, going back to customs and I use that because we're legacy customs and what's the most dangerous situation that you had as an agent? Because I refer in the book that Pete Thron wrote as there's a group of agents that we call the butt snorkelers. Those are the ones that brought donuts in the office, brought acquiesce to senior managers, and then the ride-alongs people that when you had a search warrant or you had arrests, they went upstairs and they strapped on three guns and they went out and, you know, pretended like they worked the case and led to the seizure and that. But what's the most dangerous thing that you had happen in your career with customs?
Speaker 2:Worrying about passing my final exam at the cpo school. Uh, you know, like I said, I was in two active groups, group eight, we would. You know, we were the ass kickers, not the ass kissers. We were the ass kickers when I went to greenback, we same thing. The one fortunate thing, working for wayne, you know, v vet the streets. He taught us so much. And, like I said, I like to revert back to my being raised in New York, the way I was raised just being around things working in jail. I'm always thinking ahead. That's me. I mean, I could tell you there were so many situations, you know, I don't know where to start, but I could say probably the one of the worst was the, my last experience which led me to retire Control delivery. Two kilos of heroin, you're supposed to take it out and put sham, leave enough in there. Correct, without mentioning names. They allowed a new agent, a rookie agent, to be in charge of the control delivery as the informant. Really, there was no briefing. You're supposed to do a briefing, an ops plan, right, kind of? Just, you know, go out. So we go out. And I was with a former dea, uh, former immigration agent, and, if you're familiar with 36th street, right outside the airport, before the palmetto. So you got mcdonald's and you have the denny's. So the deal was, first of all, he was with two kilos of heroin, not sham kilos of. That was the first mistake. No takedown, no, nothing. I was driving because I just had come out of. You know, I still had my chief of police car when I was over at the FBI. I had a grand marquee so I really couldn't fit in. So what I did was I went to the McDonald's parking lot next door. It was, you know, right east of it, right next door literally. And I said to the guy, without again mentioning names, I just said hey, just wait, something's going to happen. What are you talking about? I said that's the bad guy. She says how do you know? I go? It's 1230 at night. There's three or four cars in the McDonald's parking lot. He's driving with his lights off, trying to this was my interpretation trying to see if that was a cop car, somebody. Would you know your lights aren't on, flashing on the lights because you're kidding me. I said no, but I said quick, make like you're doing something to me, because we have to make like we're parking here. So we did that, sure enough, car goes out. All of a sudden I hear he's getting into the car. What? No, takedown, no, call, no, nothing. Me, the schmuck that I am, you know, I get 20,. What?
Speaker 2:Four years on I come out, you know, like to get onto 36th Street. I make the right he's about to leave and I'm literally like this I tell the guy, you get the driver One of them was quiet and I get the bad guy. Now he's revving his engine. You know, you get tunnel vision and you're going real fast, real fast, real fast. So what do I do? I take the guy right through the window and I lift him up, get him on the ground, put a gun to him, and my exact words are I'm too effing old, don't move.
Speaker 2:But prior to that, when I get him out, there's a de-agent on the roof of the car pointed a machine gun at me, you know, like an ar-15 or something. He wasn't thinking. You know I had a ray jacket on, but he didn't know who was who to play as well, because there was no briefing got, as I said in my retirement party, had the former immigration agents with their uh, immigration detectors on. You know, everybody's pointing guns at me. I'm more worried about a crossfire. So bottom line is that's the night that led to my retirement.
Speaker 2:One other time, oh yeah, one other time, uh, we're working with wayne. I got to the uh, was it when? Yeah, it was wayne, I was working, uh, I was getting to work late. I would probably stayed out late, you know, working the night before I was driving a uh jeep laredo, which tommy o'eefe got me out of seizure and I'll tell you the story when it's over, about that car and I'm late to the surveillance and I was Woody Kirk used to say I'm the only guy that had three phones. I would smurf phones, you know, like you only like $30 on each.
Speaker 2:So I would do 29, 28 on the other whatever.
Speaker 1:Metro, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know whatever they gave us what. I don't know whatever they gave us, what's it called? I'm late. I leave my house. I have my bag. I have a Beretta in there, what's it called? I have a phone, my three phones, walkie-talkie, whatever else. I always carry the gun on my ankle.
Speaker 2:Now I'm driving, no problem, I'm driving down, driving down, unbeknownst to me, I being followed because, you know, cell phones weren't popular so I remember they used to rob cell phones. So I get you know to the set there and wayne says okay, bob, you got here late. You know probably made a comment as usual. I need you to go inside. It was a gym, look for you know whatever guys wearing this and that, yeah, no problem, I go inside. I come out. I see these guys. They're doing something to my window. So what they did? They took a spark plug because remember the windows used to have heavy tint on it and it wouldn't make a noise boom. They followed me. They grabbed my bag because that phones. They saw me on the phone.
Speaker 2:But I'm running it. I'm running to the car. The car goes in reverse. I go for my gun. I don't have it. I left my gun gun. I told you. I ran late, my little gun on my ankle. I left it home the only time in my life. Boom, the car hits me. Right. I get on. I get in the car. My hand is a mess. I get on the radio Because we had units all over. We're on what's ass right? And I'm on the phone with sector and you know what that's like. You know, hold one moment. You know, remember they used to call up yeah communication system.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I'm sorry, but they were great.
Speaker 2:I mean, I was sector was great. So now I'm calling it in. You know, I don't know east from west. I know where the, the McDonald's is, burger King, I know the water, whatever. So I make a right-hand turn and I look up. I go southbound Jose Canseco Boulevard, they go what. I look up it's Southwest 16th Street or Avenue, whatever. So that's what I was making, being a wiseass. Get into it, boom, wayne, and I, I surround the guy, get him Another stupid move by me forgetting that I don't have a gun. And he does. Get him out of the car.
Speaker 2:Force was used enough to effect an arrest. And next thing, I know, I got IA calling me because the guy's in the hospital. I didn't even touch him, that's the funniest part. And they're telling me me, what a great job. Yeah, he's in the hospital ward, he's this, he's that. And there was a guy that was the acting sack. Oh, I want to take you out for a drink. I said, listen, I was a correctional officer. I said we used enough force necessary to affect an arrest and you know, that was that one that was scary because you know, shame on me. And I will tell you that only happened once in 38 years of carrying a gun because I was late now the funny part was I had a jeep laredo which tommy o'keefe you know they used to get us cars, yeah I know time yeah.
Speaker 2:So he gave me a nice one. Well, this, I went on vacation prior to that. It was like thanksgiving. So we went out to see our friends phil and kathy those, my, I think I told you they're lapd we go out, we spend thanksgiving with them. So heywood says hey, listen, can I borrow your car? Because you know everybody used to get christmas trees right after thanksgiving. I said, sure, you know, because I had. It was a suv. So when I come back I find out you know I had like the seat that drops back the wheel. Well, is in the back. Hey, what drops the seat back? There was two kilos in there.
Speaker 1:I knew you were going to say that we had that.
Speaker 2:It was Falcone and Sal Magruder's car yeah.
Speaker 1:It was one of their cars. But here.
Speaker 2:I am. Can you imagine if I got pulled over? I don't know where that came from. I don't know where that came from, do you remember?
Speaker 1:when we would all rent from Inter-American Car and we would use it for UCs and people put that into like computer systems for MetroDade and for DEA Natus and we had guys getting pulled over because that car was in a drug thing at gunpoint. I mean your point's well taken. They had kilos in the car so I never knew that.
Speaker 2:And the funniest part was haywood took credit, you know, took credit for a season at least you should give me like honorable mention, you know. But there was a lot of hairy times but I always felt safe with wayne, like you know. He was so good, you know, we had a case with, we did a joint case with O'Keefe and his Metro North guys and we it was like a money deal.
Speaker 2:They were doing a reverse but the guy wanted to launder the money. So that's how we got involved. Basically, this guy they used I just call him by his first name, pedro they used him as an undercover and the guy basically grabbed him and held him hostage and we didn't know what to do and Wayne was like I don't know, wayne just broke the door down. This guy was so big, he made me look like a midget, like he wouldn't let go. I mean, we literally had to hit him several times and then he just shook it off.
Speaker 2:And with that story what was funny is we went back to the house, you know, we got the money, we got the dope, got two kilos, you know money, but it was more going to be a reverse on him and he had like three or four filed-down guns with silencers and I think with ATF that's like a major charge, especially back then. So you know, think with ATF that's like a major charge, especially back then. So we, you know, we contacted ATF to handle it and I'll never forget that trial where he walked out, the guy like hugging, like I don't know if it was his attorney or us attorney all charges dropped. He was a CIA Bay of pigs spy, so he walked away with it, wow.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:That's. You could go on and on with that stuff, but you know, overall it was fine. It changed a lot after the merger, but customs was a great agent.
Speaker 1:We had a lot of camaraderie. I think that even to this day you know we look at it now it's 30, almost 40 years coming up on next couple of years it's still that way. And you know I always, always valued the most and I know you did loyalty in people, that when they said something they would do it. You know that's a hard part in life, that the older I get and and that I see, I look back and I say well, this this guy.
Speaker 1:He wasn't a straight shooter, you know, as far as what he said he'd do and, uh, you know and I'm not here to talk about. I would like to talk about some people, but I'm over that and I've learned. That's how they were and you've had the same experience and that. But no, you had a great career. I thought it was great. What motivated you to write the book? That's the question.
Speaker 2:So really fun. When I was a state correctionist in 1980, you know they didn't have phones I started taking, like I would choose to. We had a polaroid camera in the uh, what they call the a box. You know the with the uh, the control room, whatever it was called I used to take pictures of the inmates like I would see if they're celebrities you know what I call celebrity, like a high profile. And when I got to the queen's house I had every cop girl. I still got their photos. And then with the sheriffs, I had a couple nice cases. I took some photos. And then with customs, you know, we saw that I was taking photos.
Speaker 2:I used to always take photos and I would write little notes. I said one day I may write a book and I would write little notes. You know, whatever seizure you know with toby, this guy, that guy, uh, I would just do that. And finally I kept on saying it, saying it, and my middle son, bobby Stockman not Stockman Stockman he said, yeah, you got to write the book. Come on, you've been saying it.
Speaker 1:So over, covid I said, because I had sat down, you need to plug your son on the show. Tell him what tell him what he does.
Speaker 2:I plug all you know me. I'm a family man. I plug all you know me. I'm a family man. I plug them all in Daughter, my son-in-law, everybody. It's just like I started doing it and I started writing down. As you witnessed on our call, I can't even sign on a computer. I would type let's say I spelled your name wrong. I'd lose everything. I called up Joe Pistone. I said Joe, listen, I can't type. He goes. Do it the old school way Get a pen and pencil, write everything down. So if I spoke Toby Rocheron, I could put a line through it, write over it, boom, boom, boom. So I started doing that. I said, wow, this is fun, I would take the pictures out. Now I have a really good memory. I remember just about everything. It's crazy, you know. I remember so many things and I was able to refer back to the pictures, which refreshed my mind. I started writing and writing and writing it. So now what I did was one of my former players, joe Lopez was playing pro ball in Spain.
Speaker 2:He was a little bored. I said Joe, listen, if I pay you a few bucks, will you type this for me? He goes yeah, why not? He wasn't doing anything. So I would scan like maybe eight pages and send it to him. He send it back, send it to him, send it back.
Speaker 2:As I started putting it together, somebody else recommended an editor. You know it wasn't that, you know it was good, it was worth the price. She kind of edited everything and I kept on doing it, doing it.
Speaker 2:But a funny story with joe, this guy, joe lopez, I never read, like when he retyped I just assumed he typed everything and the editor would go over you know spelling or you know correct sentences. One day I decided to write it, to read it. And there's a story in there where I got into it with a cop killer in jail and whatever. You know, I made sure in the book I used the right words, you know politically correct. Well, what he does, he decides to change it. And there's a scenario where this guy, James Dixon York, gets in my face and he's a bad dude I mean, he's, you know, just bad and I get in his face and, ba-ba-ba, we're going at it. And Joe Lopez writes and I told him my name is Bob Stockman, Don't F with me. This is what he writes, but I didn't know that. Thank God I looked, it would have came out. It would have made me.
Speaker 2:I'm not like that. But yeah, and I just started doing it, and I'm actually thinking about doing another book on our coffee club guys because their stories are great and I'm just not going to put their names because I don't know if the seven years not that it matters anymore in the courts, but see, at least seven years. You know hasn't expired, but I'm thinking about doing that, it was fun.
Speaker 1:Now you, you obviously, joe Pistone, donnie Brasco, his movie. I know you were in it. I remember working in the middle 90s and when the movie came out I had no idea you were in it. And I'm watching it and I go, yeah, that's Bob the Bouncer in there. That's Bodyguard, I know, I know but your Bouncer story plays into that nicely. Yeah, it was about you blink a right, you miss it, but it was fun yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not, but you know you got me in there. But you know the good thing that that's really amazing. I mean, you know we keep in touch but I'm very close with Alex Alonzo. When you know, I don't know, alex will tell you the story. His first time on a, on a surveillance, it was with me. I took him out with us. Miles, of course, I'm still friends with Miles. Chuck Welcher still be with him. Tracy Cooner we're good friends there's a couple of people.
Speaker 2:It's nice to just keep in touch, because time goes by way too fast and unfortunately we're in an age now you usually get a phone call. It's not good news.
Speaker 1:You usually meet at funerals. That's the sad part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm just you know, like I said, you know it doesn't pay. Whatever you know, bygones are bygones type thing, you know.
Speaker 1:And well, yeah, to a point, to a point, but no, no, no, no no irish guy from massachusetts. You know how we are you, I'm a Jewish guy from New York.
Speaker 2:So, but you know Jewish guilt, but no, I'm just saying, you know, like I'm at a point now, like you know, I know like when I had those BSIA investigations, you know shit happens. I'm a firm believer in karma and I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 1:That's right. There's a lot of envy.
Speaker 2:We had a lot of envy with people. Listen, how many times was I investigated because somebody. I remember once I made a comment. I said you walk through the halls and somebody said what happened? I said we had the experience. Yeah, we ripped a guy for a million last night. Two days later my Miranda warrant was read to me. Somebody called up I know where it was and said they thought I ripped the guy off for a million dollars.
Speaker 1:Like I'm gonna tell somebody, I'm just saying and they probably seized two dollars from the waitress's tip in their, in their oh, I don't care no, but my, my point is you know people aren't going to change and you know like no, you just you enjoy life.
Speaker 2:Now you know it's like you, look, you laugh. You really have to because you know I see people. My wife wanted to make a shirt up, especially like in sports, and you know you see these people, the older I get, the better I was. I like that the older I get, the better I was no-transcript.
Speaker 2:I'd like to believe I had a little influence on that, but you know the way wives are. They take credit for all the good stuff. But listen, my wife should get a gold medal anyhow for putting up with me, so I'll give it that much.
Speaker 1:I agree with that, you know.
Speaker 2:Hey, you're supposed to say no, yeah, you're supposed to say no, no, I you know, I don't comment on marriages.
Speaker 1:I've had a couple myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm just not the easiest guy to get along with sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1:No, no, you're good to get along with, because honesty is the most important thing. So what do you? You said you're going to consider writing the second book. What are you planning to do with the next uh, uh, 40 years of your life? Hopefully we live that long. I'm always optimistic, you know I may be like weekend at bernie's, but you know it uh, hopefully I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean right now I just want to enjoy, stay healthy. You know I I just do things you want to do. You know, uh, my wife loves the sailboat. She left yesterday. She's going three weeks. She's in the fiji islands. You know I, yeah, I mean that's what she likes to do. You know she makes fun of me. I like to go to new york and hang out with my buddy, paulie. You know I'm just saying. But you know I volunteer in high school now and you know I just try to you do whatever I can to help. You know, maybe help change a kid's life. You know I think I have a lot to offer In a few weeks I go to Vegas.
Speaker 2:I work for a sports agent at his camp. A European camp Guy's trying to go overseas. I do that. You know I just try to stay in the game. You know I go to the gym. You just got to keep on moving. You know you got to keep on moving. Absolutely, you know that's what it's about. You know, it's not like we used to be, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to tell everybody that I recommend this book. There's a lot of things in here and I don't talk about books because that's. I recommend that you get it on amazon or whatever. Bob has it out there, because it's, it's really good and it has you know it's it's just got the right amount of pictures in here. Um, because some some of the books and I've read all my guests I read the books because it's important.
Speaker 1:You can't uh, sit here and be like a talking head, like we see on on the border, and talk. They've had no experience, you know, about ever been to the border. They were the secretary whatever secretary of this for six months, appointed, appointed by somebody, and they're not experts and I see this on all the major media. And I wanted to bring Bob Starkman here today because he is an expert. He's lived the life, he continues to cherish his friends and you're getting real stories, okay, from all the guests that have been on this program. So again, bob, I want to thank you for coming on, wish you the best always and I'll try to get up to Broward to attend one of these meetings.
Speaker 2:You ain't going nowhere. You'll be taking the train up there. You're too lazy you won't drive. You'll take the train I got to take the train.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got to take Brightline, so you can pick me up and bring me in incognito and that I'd like to see a lot of the people. Thank you very much for coming on, Bob. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. Thanks for having me guys.
Speaker 1:Okay, brother, Talk to you soon.
Speaker 2:See you.