Justice Then, Justice Now
This podcast explores the American criminal justice system from all angles, including perspectives from: law enforcement, prosecution, inmates, fugitives and everything in between.
Justice Then, Justice Now
Ep 10: Ruben Gonzalez - The Undercover Fight Against Human Trafficking
Join us on this captivating journey with Ruben Gonzalez, a former senior special agent with US Customs, as he unveils the thrilling and often perilous world of undercover law enforcement. Discover how Ruben’s childhood in a Puerto Rican family in Wisconsin and his early exposure to law enforcement in Florida shaped his extraordinary career. From being a Customs Explorer to conducting high-stakes operations in Miami during the late 80s and early 90s, Ruben discusses his crucial role in tackling money laundering and his specialized knowledge in marine environments and trade regulations.
Step into the shadowy realm of counterfeit goods investigations, where Ruben shares stories of dismantling networks dealing in fake pharmaceuticals and medical supplies. Uncover the harsh realities and dangers posed by counterfeit heart and cancer medications, among other items, often traced back to international origins. Ruben’s relentless pursuit of justice continues with his involvement in Operation Underground Railroad (OUR), where he fights human trafficking in Central America, offering invaluable training to local law enforcement and holistic support to rescued victims.
Finally, we delve into the mechanics of identifying and rescuing human trafficking victims, from discreet intelligence-gathering in Costa Rican clubs to post-rescue rehabilitation efforts. Hear about Ruben’s detailed strategies to maintain safety and authenticity in undercover operations, including transporting millions in cash with local law enforcement in Panama. His impactful stories and dedication to justice provide a riveting and inspiring account of the relentless fight to protect the innocent and bring criminals to justice.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
Here we are with another session of Justice Then Justice. Now. Across from me is Jeff Thomas, the producer and the person. The man of the hour is Ruben Gonzalez, who I've known since 1989. Ruben's in Panama City, Panama, and I'll let him tell you what his current job is.
Speaker 1:I think everybody will be interested in this session because there was a hit movie last year about the subject and prior to that Ruben was an accomplished senior special agent with US Customs. He was with what's now CBP and also with HSI, Homeland Security Investigations. He's been assigned to the Miami office and also finished out his career in Houston, Texas, had a very diverse career with a bunch of different cases done, multiple undercover operations. So that should be a hint about what cases done multiple undercover operations. So that should be a hint about what he's going to talk about. And this subject is a very sensitive subject for anybody in the law enforcement industry. It takes a special quality of person's character to do such, and when he explains it to you, I know you're going to be interested in what he's doing to make the world a better place for families. Ruben, it's a pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 2:Likewise, fred likewise.
Speaker 3:Yeah again. Thanks for coming on, ruben, so real quick. I'd kind of like to open this up by just asking you a couple of background questions when you're from, where you grew up, how your childhood was like, what your parents were like and foreshadowed maybe into why you're at where you're at today.
Speaker 2:Simple. I'm originally a Macetan. I was born and raised in Wisconsin. My dad had settled down in Milwaukee and my childhood was there in Wisconsin. My dad had settled down in Milwaukee and my childhood was there in Wisconsin. So I grew up with the people say there's Midwestern values, you know Midwest. When my dad retired he moved down to Florida. So I finished my school and college down in Florida and that's where I became exposed to law enforcement.
Speaker 2:I am of Puerto Rican descent. My parents are Puerto Rican and we get a whole family tight-knit Latin Hispanic community Grew up in Miami, pretty much their high school and college. It was during these early formative years we met some good friends, law enforcement people like Toby here. When we met I think I was probably 16, 17 years old. I was when I started out my career and, believe it or not, I was one of the first persons hired was Customs Explorer, which is a branch of the Boy Scouts for finding careers and so on. So there were two of us who were hired at the same time when I was in New York and myself were the first ones who were hired after I finished college.
Speaker 3:Awesome. And then after college, where'd you go from there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I finished school I entered. I got exposed to law enforcement. I was in the school department and there was a gentleman who ran. I'm not even sure who he was. Back then Custis had what we call a patrol division. They actually went on patrols by the water and so on. So I got exposed to the marine environment and to the special agencies what we call a patrol division. They actually went on patrols and played in the water and so on. So I got exposed to the marine environment and to the special agencies.
Speaker 2:This guy was named Ray Rogers Toby may know him, he's been retired. He exposed me to this program and I joined Constance University College and my first posting was with an instructor's job as an instructor in San Juan Juan, puerto Rico. So I got to go and live there for one a year and actually get to know my family, which is without. That was a plus. But I ended up getting all these fever and I was like no, I'm not gonna get up to the states. I I mean, I want to do election and the time everything on the action was in Miami.
Speaker 2:You know this is the era I'm talking about dating home. We're talking about you know the times. You know, miami, rice and south beach and within miami was the hot point at the time for my own friends. So I was able to uh finale transfer back to miami and join uh a specialized unit that was called the Intervention Enforcement Team, cet, and there were the elites and they had become like the new patrol division of systems and we worked in ports and seaports containers. It wasn't really working, it was fun. It was fun, I mean, we found targets in places that you could not imagine and then once we find it, you know, call the special agencies, do the investigations and join them in surveillances and car chases down the road, down the turnpike, trying to stop people following containers all the way from Miami to Houston loads, you know, several thousand pounds of loads. It was a fun time, it was a fun era and we did a lot of good back then.
Speaker 3:Awesome. So this was like late 80s, early 90s kind of.
Speaker 2:Yes, the late 80s 90s. I worked there. We worked case. He moved up to a supervisory level within that division and then later on I transferred over as a special agent and started working conducting investigations. It was a different part. That was the part where having worked as an instructor and working the ports and learning the regulations, the compliance systems of shipments, of trade, of cargo consuming, methods of consuling, understanding the flow of where merchandise is coming from and going to the hunt points, made me so much a better investigator to follow leads and think out of the box. My key was thinking out of the box and the one thing that attracted me the most was the aspect of which we'll get into is the money laundry, and the money laundry as it relates to the color operations, uh, me being bilingual, being able to be spanish, read it and write it, um. And when I became a special agent, um, I got approached.
Speaker 2:I wanted to become the cover in the cover, working in different programs, whether it's intellectual property, money laundering products, and the cover work is not cut out for everything, it's something specific. You have to have a specific mindset. I don't get into the specifics of everything, but there is a bunch of testing, there's different forms that you have to go through. They get into the cover work just to say, hey, I was in the cover work the Eagle, the Prime but they're still working till the end. When you go into the cover work, you have to. You don't say it While you're working on're working undercover. You're not telling your neighbors and your brothers and your sisters or fellow law enforcement or people in the neighborhood. You keep it quiet. You do not become a brag. I'm doing this not because I'm retired, I'm in business. But you have to have a specific mindset. They'll tell you this is real. This is not pretending to be a cop, this is being real.
Speaker 2:Work undercover where you're putting your life on the line. It's not like you've been in real life. You put your life on the line. You put hands in somewhere, handcuffs, when you do it undercover. You could be working undercover in some remote area If you've been sanctioned and organized in a foreign country and your alcohol cannot may not be there right away. You're backed by the host country to be the ones that sell notes. I may not be there right away. You're backed by the host country to be the ones that sell notes. I mean, you're doing so many things when you're doing it at risk that you. It's really people where I remember going to the conference where they they said you know really of this, you can die from this. This is no joke.
Speaker 2:I mean didn't even if he was something that will change within a second, and before you know it, you know somebody has a gun on you or something or a knife, and before your team gets you and backs you up, you can be. So this is big at Torrance and people are like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no for this. So, yeah, you have to have, I want to say, a little bit nuts to want to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you know, concerning your interest with money laundering and stuff like that, is that is undercover work, like is that how you catch most of those money laundering things, or is it like just a bunch of cash rolls up and you're putting the dots together?
Speaker 2:No, no, no Digital waste. There are different avenues. One type of work is just one tool in your toolbox. I mean you have agents that are doing work. It's counting work that you follow the source, the intelligence where the money reports from banks, suspicious activity reports in banks. Suspicious activity reports in banks leads from fencing, which is a financial intelligence unit in the US, and agents will follow the trail, follow the breadcrumbs, use subpoenas, grand juries to the banks, the accountants.
Speaker 2:You interview people you get warned for, let's say, books, accountants, information. That's one avenue, but the other avenue is in the cover work, where you are able to reduce yourself to longer people's money. I mean you set up entities or businesses in an under-common capacity and you yourself might as sure don't earn your money. So you're raising illicit funds and placing them within some type of financial institution, whether it's a business with bank accounts, et cetera and you move the money, cover the money as gains or proceeds of those businesses, so when it comes out on the other side to the bank, he can claim it in whatever country he's in, wherever he is. Oh, this is money from such business, so don't be so mean. You've covered up his origins through financial businesses and there you end up collecting intel and evidence on those individuals because now they committed the overt act of hiding the money, which is a crime in itself. On those individuals, because now they committed the overact of hiding the money, which is a crime in itself. And you're moving millions for them.
Speaker 2:And the thing is that when you develop a good rapport with a certain organization and they start to trust you, then they start using you as their accountant to pay their bills. You know, let's, for example, you move a million dollars for them. They're happy with you, so you're able to move more money for them. They trust you. Now they say, hey, can you pay $200,000 to Mr John Smith, captain, so-and-so Okay, smith, captain, so-and-so Okay. Can you pay another $400,000 to ABC Chemicals in, let's say, taiwan or somewhere, china? Can you pay so-and-so? So now you become paying their bills.
Speaker 2:Now you have to identify the organization. Oh, john Smith, he's a captain. He runs a ship off the coast of the Caribbean Interesting, let's look at that. Oh, abc Chemicals. He's a captain. He runs a ship off the coast of the Caribbean Interesting, let's look at that. Oh, abc Chemicals out of China or Taiwan, let's look at that. It could be the precursor company that's providing the precursor chemicals to make the new products, or so on. So and so so you start identifying, you develop your trust in the current capacity. Then you look in the organization and you get developed or trust in the current capacity.
Speaker 2:Then you're not going to work in the organization.
Speaker 3:And then those in turn become like referrals for new assignments. Potentially right, correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those end up becoming independent investigations, sort of what we call like walled off so you don't get burned as it becomes.
Speaker 3:Gotcha. Gotcha, Because at that point you're pretty valuable, because people are referring you to other people and to lose that status would be devastating to that whole investigation, right?
Speaker 2:and way better and they've probably even done more. I know they have done more than me and more riskier, but in the time that I've had I was able to work into uh undercover operations and doing money laundering. Uh, I was able to work in. Believe it, when we do intellectuals, um, we call ipr and uh, of course, the electronics and the human support and new products. You're basically offering services, transport services that for a while in the maritime industry, pick up the loads, bring them out and we, you know you can provide the cover load to hide the narcotics in and you may. You charge them for a, for a, for a fee, a percentage in money. We move the money for them In humans. We offer, again, transportation to bring people across the border for them and these people and these, these illegals immigrants, they become witnesses and so I have to cooperate.
Speaker 2:So there are different avenues that you can use undercover in the intellectual property rights in the arena, mostly we try to concentrate not on fake merchandise like you know, the glass you can use your stuff like fake Apple phones, which are mostly in health safety, health and safety Cases, like fake pharmaceutical sales of fake drugs such as hope medicine, cancer medicine, a lot of that stuff that you find on the Internet. So I did undercover work with a good agent, an excellent agent out of Houston fake meds for dogs and these meds were like tick medications for fleas and tick and it was huge. It involved the Great Britain. We worked with Leonard. He was coming out of India. It was in the hundreds of millions of dollars to fraud and the case ended up being where someone's merchandise got into legitimate and being sold in major brand stores stuff like that. We had one with cancer medicine. Heart medicine went to India. Then we come over there in India and people bring medicines for the heart conditions and yet it's the stuff doesn't and the stuff that's in it is dangerous
Speaker 2:itself and these people are putting it in their lives. And so we found that that is a big business, especially in the West, because with the cost of medicine. So we went in and did our cases on the current work behind these medicines so we can then lead us to the actual supplier by bigger rooms, leading us into more, to the factories so they can show us their operations with big loads and made us because we'll become their best partners or their best customers in order then to extradite them to the US, and because a lot of people die from this stuff.
Speaker 2:We had a case that was with tourniquets you know those tourniquets that you put on when you're bleeding out and they were fainted and some of these tourniquets were being supplied to local police departments and different government entities in other countries and stuff like that. It doesn't sound as sexy as ooh so you can go out and bring money for some terrorist group or something, but in that arena it's important because it's affecting rural people and making because it's it's a, it's affecting real people and making a buck of somebody's misery. But yeah, I got exposed into I mean I could get into more specific one case in the car where we were working with um licensing stuff that were people making hundreds of millions of dollars selling fake licenses for, like, microsoft software and we're everybody got some major distributor so we're sexy, but they were making, hurting the businesses and hundreds of millions of dollars. But the sexy ones that excitement have the excitement with the takedown and guns. That's mostly what you want to bring to your product's business.
Speaker 3:Gotcha. And so how long were you doing that for before you are, you know, gotten to what you're doing now?
Speaker 2:So I. So I've been in the long run between inspector and special agent 35 years. I returned in the end of 2022. I did undercover work for 10 years. The undercover work. I got exposed to do some great stuff, the methodology of the undercover work and I won't get into specific on the backstop, but I'll give you a different identity on that um and I'm gonna uh when I retire. Um, I'm sort of looking to see what I could. I was putting my name out there in my resume and I've had a few offers um in complaints, you know, retention clients, uh, money laundering, compliance, looking for suspicious activities from a couple banks and so on. But I just didn't feel it. And then this organization which is called Operation of the Marlboro we have some friends that worked there who were former agents also got word of me. They were also retiring. They always like panama.
Speaker 2:I worked as uh here, pam, for four years as uh, as uh with the uh, some shades and office with the homeless security investigations and I fell in love with him and I call panama man. Like you don't have to have, like you know, but light or Light or Bud, this I call it Miami Light. So it's a good place to live a great place for expats. So I came down. They offered me hey, would you like to come to work for UO, right here in the Army Room, at the end of 2022. And I remember I was on a long term team. Why would I want to? I mean long term. It was almost a year. Returned to TY and I cut my TY shirt short and changed the date on my papers retirement papers and retired. And retired one day and started working for OUR the next day, literally. And then three days later I was in Honduras doing work, literally. And then three days later I was in honduras doing much right away. Yeah, so what you are is uh, it's uh came out in the movie uh, sound of freedom that's very popular in the us, developed by uh, uh this proving my angel studios.
Speaker 2:Uh, the story of an hsi agent who fed up with bureaucracy and uh quit and started this foundation or this NGO, non-profit NGO, non-government organization and I ended up looking for them. I felt it was God's work, I felt that it was. They took it over offers from the other private sector. As I mentioned earlier, compliance was, it was right and uh, I just felt it in my heart and it's something. My whole life came from the west, like I said, I started really saying I'm originally called cheese here in wisconsin came from wisconsin and big western values and the Latin culture of family and closeness and helping each other and Christian values of helping a fellow man. So my whole life has been about that. My parents taught me is about giving to others, giving to the community, always do what you can for everyone. So it was ingrained in me, so it was natural for me to accept the job with OUR, and here I am, opened up offices here in Panama and Central America and we're strictly rescuing exploited sexual trafficking, sexual exploitation, trafficking of women and children, and there's work to be done here in Central America Right now.
Speaker 2:Presently it's a two-part approach. We help the local law enforcement, the prosecutors, in trainings and capacity building and guide them in investigations. We help the local law enforcement, the prosecutors, in trainings and capacity building and guide them in investigations and if need be, if we're authorized, if need be, we'll bring in retired personnel to go and collect intelligence on the ground utilized by the host government. We're not doing this out on the road, you know, we don't want to get jammed. And the other part is, after the rescue. A lot of the sponsors don't have the resources to help the children or the women, and the women need attention, uh, psychological trauma, medical attention. Um, we try to empower the women to fulfill their dreams or even help them with careers and growing up so they can become independent and not really getting duped by some trafficker, probably seeing a better world. For example, we've had operations in Honduras and locations where we've worked with one enforcement and taken our organizations.
Speaker 2:I remember one place we did an operation and we were able to get four different organizations to bring girls um like for alleged clients. And well, those girls are like, 10 of them were like, 40 were minors under the age of 15, and then then out of those, two of them were pregnant when we took them to the hospitals and did the triage. Once you rescue them, so it ends a. Today, sexual slavery or slavery is more prevalent than ever in the history of humankind and I wanted to get into this and we're able to do good here. We're rescuing children, we're running into actual organizations that are recognized, that they're operating in, uh well, 40 or so countries around the world, everywhere from like Thailand, australia, middle East, europe, africa, south America, central America, and it's $150 million operation yearly. You know, in profit it's the third highest revenue gaining illicit activity, after narcotics and weapon smuggling. It's number three according to the United Nations numbers. But I've been able to rescue some children here, some women Women are and we have this issue with their open borders in the US. The US says, oh, we don't have open borders. Well, you know, right, you know where I stand on that. It's just coming along, the issue here with these women coming across Panama, the Darién Gap in families. They come looking for a better life.
Speaker 2:But there are people always taking advantage of the situation of these people that are coming, their families coming across Now the border here in Panama, in Colombia. It's a jungle. They've been down there many times. They've been down there many times and that place is no joke. I mean, they got beetles bigger than your fist, they got snakes, they got canines, they're everything. And the heat, the hydration alone will kill you and people die in that road and you have people taking advantage.
Speaker 2:So this migration that's going on to the US, to me it's like American history, indians, the Trail of Tears how the Indians were being migrated and moved and so many Indians died along the route where they were being relocated in the US. Some thousands of people died in these trails and the organized cartels are taking advantage of the situations. So you have something from smuggling. Human smuggling turns into trafficking with the instance where they grab these people and they tell them yeah, 10 grand, take it to the US. They sell everything. They only give you, let's say, 4,000 in front, along the way they get to Panama and Costa Rica or Honduras and say you know what? I'm yours for another $2,000.
Speaker 1:Well you can't give it to us?
Speaker 2:Guess what we're going to work for it. Where you're going, she's going to be working herself as a prostitute in this club. You, your wife's going to be working at a hotel cleaning sheets or whatever. Now you can force leave. Now that into you pay. You never come up with those $2,000 interest incurred and additional that they say that they've incurred. So then you move on to the next stage in the room. So from a trip that you're looking for a better life, it turns into a need for some of these people who's smuggling into trafficking. And you're looking for a better life, it turns into a need for some of these people who are smuggling into trafficking and you never hear from them again sometimes. So we've seen that organized and women that are also brought into, taken from here to Eastern country Europeans and other places with false promises Well, we'll get you a better job, you're going to earn so much money a month. Then next thing thing you know they get there and they're saying now they take their passports and your documentations and they're working in some club.
Speaker 2:um and uh they can't get up and they say well, people, uh, police, or go for help. Well, theseickers, when they recruit you in these centuries, they ask you like oh, so he's like a farm hey, you know, it could be.
Speaker 2:It's a good journey, but just in case, as you're on a city with your tons of somebody you care husband, wife, someone that you're dear to and they say yes, so-and-so, okay, great. So when they're trying to help you, they put you to work somewhere as a prostitute or forced labor or something, and they'll say listen, if you act up, you run away and you call the police. We have your documents, your passports, but here, who recruited you in that town? He will take a picture of your mother, of your kids or your relative and they'll send it to him via WhatsApp or one of these apps and they'll show it to you. They'll say you know what? See this? This was 10 minutes ago.
Speaker 2:If your mother or your family you behave, shit is going to happen to them, so that's how they keep them in control. So we do a lot of work of this stuff. I'm being detailed about this, but we're doing a lot of good work and all of this organization is privately funded by donors and we're doing good and I'm very proud and if you're on to be working with this organization, because anything I can do to help save children from this evil, evil, immoral crime of women. For me it's hopefully God takes a notice and say hey, thank you.
Speaker 3:So like when you know I'm very much a lay person in this, you know experience, I've never. I've been to Central America and South America a couple of times but um, you know, for work and you know it's just kind of like when you're there for a couple of days you just everyone just see, you, you're almost the exotic person, you know, and everyone's just kind of going about their day. Um, and then you know, you hear about the migration from South America to coming through Mexico and in the US. But there's people like that that get caught up in, you know, say, in Central America and they don't make it to the US, they get kind of shipped out to Europe and other countries. That happens pretty prevalently or pretty rarely.
Speaker 2:It happens. I wouldn't say prevalently, but more than normal it happens. I always say prevalent, but more than normal. They will approach them and say I can offer you, we can take you to Paris or we can. I'll give you a specific case To a local group. They do it to the migrants that are moving to the locals and they'll tell them listen, I know it's tough, the economy is bad, you can't find jobs. We have some jobs for you in Europe. We're going to take you. You're going to make about 1,000 to 1,600 euros a month. They'll give you a contract to sign. It's working at some nature cities or at some fancy restaurant or club. It's for tourists.
Speaker 2:In either case, these women were recruited. One of the female recruiters it was a couple actually flew with them and flew home, but they ended up. They flew them to Turkey. In Turkey, they were handed off to a gentleman and drove them to Kosovo. And next thing, you know their practices are taken and they're working at a high-end club, a bar club, with VIP prostitution rooms, and so they're working there. They're like, oh my God, with VIP prostitution rooms, and so they're working there. They're like, oh my God. They were able to get a message out and we were able the organization, we were able to rescue them and bring them back to Canada. We'll pay for the trips, their airfare and give them assistance here.
Speaker 2:So you have migrants, let's say, coming out of Venezuela or Colombia. They get here. They're like hey, listen, great job for you over here, we'll take you over here, here's your contract, it's a contract, everything else and they put them to work. So, yes, I would say it's prevalent um, where they're just trying to make a gift of life and they don't realize what they're getting into, sometimes the dangers about these predators that are out there looking for that. I've been to chile and in chile you have, we have a trend. There's a game called now Tren de Armas. It's moving through Venezuela, the movement across, and even now in the US they're great a very group. So I was in Chile working for a while on a conference and we hooked up with the police down there and I went driving through the cities of cities, of downtown, and you have a lot of Venezuelans that have also gone to Chile looking for a better life.
Speaker 2:And the Tren de Aragua gang members come out the streets looking for young girls and they're looking, they're profiling and what they're doing is they're looking at. Okay, here's a 20 something year old girl. She looks like she's going to go for an interview and she's moving around with folders and repeating what her resume is in. So that's what they're looking for. And they're hey, I got this for you, baba, you know. And they promised them, hey, let's have a coffee next thing. You know, they got their passports, they got them controlled and they're working in a apartment building where they're controlled and they're being prosecuted.
Speaker 2:And they didn't cooperate. The girls had them have to. For every job that they worked, they got to give a percentage. And if they hold anything, or they don't want or they refuse, what they do is they shame the girl's head. So everyone in the community and all the friends know that, hey, she's from the thing around, but she didn't do what she had to do to shame them and the people. And they extort the local businessmen. And also another scam they got going on and if they don't pay, they give them the leg foot. They shoot them in the leg or the foot, so they're limping. So it puts a message out when the merchant's walking around and he's limping yeah, he didn't do what he had to do, pay us. So they're like the new MS--13, ms-18 of south america, central america so to do undercover work?
Speaker 3:are you mainly like um, like going to the places where these people end up, or like um, or do you trying to get them in? You know, but before they get there in rote, like how does that work?
Speaker 2:no, I'm not. I'm not doing, doing like here. I'm not doing the government panel, obviously because I'm in the public life here, but in other countries we'll the organization we try not to do, because of liability issues, too much of the work.
Speaker 2:It's only as one adds to the post-government that they need someone to go in they're an American or European into those to collect intel information for them at their request. We'll do it. We're not setting up these private parties to come over to this house because we don't want to bring up the clause of entrapment. But going in and talking to possible girls in there or their managers, or bartender or law enforcement cops that they don't know how to do this, or retired guys, we can get the red flags or the basic evidence, um, to take it to the next level for law enforcement, to take it to the next level in these countries. And uh, and you can see the tall tape. You say you can look at see if the woman looks too young. Or you can ask her uh, you can ask, you can find now if she's trafficked or she can't go anywhere.
Speaker 2:Simple questions, because a lot of them they'll take their travel documents or passports. So let's say you find a girl that says she's from Colombia, venezuela or some country, honduras, in this location here in Costa Rica, or Colombia and Venezuela or some country in Honduras in this location here in Costa Rica, in a club, and you tell her something. Well, how do you try to find out without right up asking them? Did they take your documents? No, you say, hey, I'm really cute, you're really cute, I really like you. You know what Can you get out of here? You know, for a couple days, my tree and they'll say, no, well, yeah, I can go out, but you have to pay the house more money to leave the premises. No, no, no, like I want to take you to Mexico with the Dominican Republic. You tell, tell a country that you got to know countries where visas are not for certain people, for certain countries, and you go yeah, let's go to the Dominican Republic you go to.
Speaker 2:Cancun. I'll take you all expenses three days. No, I can't. No, no, it's okay, I can't, and you go why, why can't you?
Speaker 2:no, you know I can't. Okay, for all those days you know more than you would make here and eventually they'll say, no, they have my birth certificate. They can't tell me. And so that, right, there is one of the elements of trafficking. By then simply saying that they can't vote with you, that could be a flat, that they're being tracked, that they're being held there because their documents are being controlled. So, even if they don't right out say it, the fact that they tell you no, they can't, that's an indicator to go to the next level.
Speaker 2:On the investigation Simple stuff, simple trick like that will go into location to get that. On the investigation Simple stuff, simple trick like that. We'll go into location to get that type of intel. But it's not that we're knocking down doors, you know, like a SWAT team. No, no, no, that's the host government, that's their job, that's their responsibility. We'll just provide the intel and assist them in every way we can. But the number one way, primarily for us, is to build up the law enforcement to get to that level of efficiency, of professionalism and become experts themselves so they can do it themselves. There are certain things they can do. Sometimes you need a looking form to collect that intel for you.
Speaker 3:Gotcha, gotcha looking for a particular man to let that intel for you. Operation Underground Railroad only works in countries where they're like they want the help.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, We'll go out and engage and make contact with the countries and sometimes we'll start working there period and get them to know us and the good that we can do and what we can bring to the table. But I would say, yeah, most of the time they want us there, they welcome our assistance, especially when we're helping the aftercare, the victims or the survivors after their health, because we're helping them with some of those and then, um, we help with like medicine, as mentioned before in psychology treatments. Um, we'll help them. Let's say, we're still rural and she says I want to stay in this country, I don't want to go between your country. I want to learn how to become an office manager in some business, you know, like, I want to learn how to become certified in Microsoft System, adobe, excel and use all that. So we'll find like a school. Or I want to learn a trade. We'll find a school for that trade and pay the tuition. And then we'll tell them okay, it's to you now. You have to show up, you have to pass, you have to take the courses. By then doing that, they're becoming self-reliant, they're learning to become whole again. You're empowering them and then help them also to find jobs. That's so they don't. The cycle does not continue, what we call break the chain. You know that old adage you can give a guy a fish, but if you teach him not continue what we call break the chain. You know, you know that old, that old adage you know. You know you can give a guy a fish, but if you teach him how to fish, it's instead of giving the fish and teach him how to finish it, he won't go home. So basically, that's the philosophy and these women can, um, we sometimes even help them set up businesses. We have some have set up small businesses, small entrepreneurs, and they've become successful. Some continue to go on into the medical field. We've helped them get into it and then they themselves have gone on and gotten scholarships and move on.
Speaker 2:We had one girl in Honduras who her dream was just to finish high school. She was there to finish high school. She said that her life was born. Her life began the day she was rescued. She was probably at the time, I think, like 14 years old.
Speaker 2:She graduated recently and on her classroom graduation ring on her finger she took a picture, sent it to us. On the inside of her ring she put the date not of graduation, the date that she was rescued you are out of graduation. The date that she was rescued by you are and and the host country law enforcement. So, um, to have the greatest feeling is when you rescue some of these women that's it's happened to me is, um, when they come back later, after a couple weeks, that they're calm, their brain is is settled, they're gotten over the shock. It's a lot going on and you're meeting with them and they come and they give you a hug and they say thank you, thank you for saving my life, thank you, and that's better than a million bucks because you know you just impacted someone's life, so you're blessed. I believe that if you can impact one person's life, you're blessed.
Speaker 3:Definitely, definitely. So, yeah, I think that's got to be like the most rewarding part of the whole thing, right, is afterwards seeing some of these people go from hell to you know something prosperous and productive. Are there what? What's, um, like, what's the worst countries? What are, what are some of the countries that are like screw you guys, we don't want you, we're taking care of the problem ourselves or not?
Speaker 2:and uh, and like where it's not even worth dealing with no question I I don't know because I haven't spoken to the other countries or the management about that.
Speaker 2:I know that here in Central America and in South America they want us, they beg us to come in and we need more help.
Speaker 2:We need more assistance Because not just the resources, the financial that we bring, the training, the capacity building, we also help with awareness and education. The biggest threat, like for now, in the exploitation of children or children becoming victims, is the ease of social media, social apps. So you have a lot of predators and people on these social apps talking to kids and enticing them, getting up to a location where they can actually meet and do something with them, to them. So it's we try to also help out in education on the pearls of you know, monitoring the dangers of social applications and helping local law enforcement develop their capabilities in the cybernetic and internet arena to proactively be out there looking for these predators and helping those countries in legislation updating their legislation to reflect the new times and new technologies that are out there. That were kids become vulnerable to these predators and they end up these kids end up being sexually trafficked and sexually used let's go back to your government work.
Speaker 1:Give me an example of what's the most frightening circumstance you faced, not necessarily in an undercover role, but in general. You know, and I'll be straight with you on this, we had a very lack of Hispanic agents when I started. Okay, believe it or not it was, it was a very. All you did was undercover. I mean, with the drug wars with the Cubans and the Colombians, you would get that phone call 10 o'clock at night. Go out. You got to be the UC, I mean me. A guy from Massachusetts could not go out and buy from drugs from Colombians or go out and do a money pickup. Okay, what I'm asking you is basically what kind of undercover did what kind of work? What challenging stuff have you been actually not scared but you had to pay attention to right away?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, the key for me, the most difficult thing, was the details. The detail, the slightest, smallest thing could give you away who you were. And one of the biggest issues to overcome understanding the Spanish culture for me was a lot of the narcotics guys or the Latinos in the Hispanic community that were involved in the illicit trade and narcotics and mail laundering are very superstitious. Some of my laundry are very superstitious and Toby you, coming also from Miami, you understand a lot would be involved in santeria, like voodoo, magic santeria and all this stuff. And if they met with you and they got a bad vibe, bad feeling, you had to be careful how you dressed, what you spoke, your mannerism, any little thing. They would look at you and they didn't like your pants, the color of your shirt. Right away you're a cop or the deal is off. So the key thing for me was making sure that I not didn't trigger something um on him. I I had a case one time and uh, the uh, the guy started probed me and they were Mexicans and the thing was they were just looking at me and my Puerto Rican accent right. And here I am and they're just like. I knew what they were thinking. I knew they were like is this not a cop? Why is this? And I just have to make sure that the details matter for me and the biggest thing is it was that.
Speaker 2:And the other thing was I got scared one time when I was doing a deal and I was meeting with some people in. It was, I believe it was, in St Warren. We were on the Dutch side and these guys were. They were Colombians and we were picking up major, major money and we were able the Dutch to get to get her phones and we had an initial meeting and they were just talking about you know what is.
Speaker 2:Are these guys for real? It was like the first meeting and we had to make a phone call we're going to meet with them or not? Even though they had doubts, they weren't sure it was big money. We had the meeting but I had to make sure that my cover team and myself I was totally fleeing and and it's the whole thing is for me, the terror has been working in foreign country, taking up money. My thing has always been, not so much in Syria but in some of the Latin countries where they allow us to operate, is are the people that are covering me that we try to limit who knows who I am. Are they're the ones?
Speaker 1:who are gonna give me?
Speaker 2:up. So you always have that fear. I can't be reminded. I remember one time when I first got to Panama here I was not. This is not on the cover. Give me an idea.
Speaker 2:My first week here I get a case. I had to go to the clone free zone. I just met these cops. The guys that worked with me knew them. This is the first time I met them. It took me three days to go along in the Free Zone. We come back. We end up with $7 million in cash that was being shipped to Columbia.
Speaker 2:I'm coming back, for example, on a country road, one lane, going one lane coming, climb through hills back and forth at you know, one in the morning with $7 million, four vehicles. I'm the only agent. The rest are local cops and I'm thinking I just met these guys three days ago. My buddies vouch for them. But you know, do I trust these guys? Are we going to get ambushed on this road, dark road? You know these cops, local cops. You know for this kind of money. You know put a bullet in and you know take the money an ambush on me.
Speaker 2:So these are the real things that you deal with as an undercover and when you're in the field, when you're working, especially in a foreign environment, with stuff like that. My biggest concern was the smallest details, things like when they're prepping the materials for you, really giving the undercover meaning. Is everything up to date? If you set up an apartment, is the apartment up to date? Is the food in the refrigerator in the undercover office? Is it good? You can't have anything that's expired. You can't have anything that's if it needs to complain. You don't have pictures of yourself with family and friends or something in your office, in your undercover office, then it looks fake. It has to look real.
Speaker 1:The details matter.
Speaker 2:They pay attention to the details how you're dressed, your shoes, the jewelry you're wearing. If you're playing a businessman, are your nails fixed? Are your nails done properly manicured? Are you playing a construction worker? Are your hands coarse? And you say, yeah, I mean construction, only life. But yet you have the hands of the permanent owner. You know the details and a lot of times not every undercover can do all types of undercover, like I did not do street corner or construction undercover, biker. I didn't fit. That person Mostly stuck to white collar type money laundering stuff. Well, you have other guys that can do corner, street stuff, that can do bikers. So management needs to know your abilities and where you fit in. You can't force the circle into the square, and sometimes they do, and that's when things go wrong. I don't know if I put more there than your question. You know totally want to answer, but it's somewhat aligned to the details.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it comes down to screening. It comes down to screening the right person for the assignment and especially with something like that. I mean, you know the work I've done as a PI on Persona Non Grata in Venezuela. Because of the work that was done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't let them put you in jail.
Speaker 1:What's that? Yeah, they would, and you know that We've talked about this both when you were with the government and since. But yeah, I'm not going to get the welcome wagon if I go back. But at the same time, being a gringo for call it a lesser word worked to my advantage, because when I was down there until I was told to leave by Ledea that it worked because I was able to blend in and get things done. But you're right, it has to be around the situation and you have to pick the right person. Situation and you have to pick the right person.
Speaker 1:I think what you've explained well is, once the children and the women are rescued, they go through a process of psychological job placement. I don't think that has been addressed in Sound of Freedom and I don't think the organization that you work for people don't realize it is a social service component for these victims and I thought you did a great job explaining that, because the public just knows you rescue and there's a happy ending afterwards, but there is severe psychological trauma to any any of these ladies that have been through that, Correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, as a matter of fact, our biggest part of our budget, that we spend the biggest chunk, the largest chunk is for survivor care, helping them after their rescue.
Speaker 1:Okay, and let me ask you this, since, as far as the individuals that are trafficking them and they're prosecuted in country, what kind of sentences do they get down in Central America and you know, Northern Columbia and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:It's, various countries are, and everything based on the Korean United Nations established definition of what is trafficking and elected Panama, I think it starts at seven years is the lowest sentence. Each country is a little bit different. Um, they, they're, they're stringent. Um, I know panama is trying to raise it something to like 12, 15 years sentence. Um, the countries are similar. Um, I don't know the other country specific, but it's a country, it's, it's very straight. Um, they, especially in lat Latin cultures, because, you know, overall, you know kids are everything. You know most cultures, you know, I think, from the Italians, the Latins, you know families, everything, our children are the most precious things to us. So I mean, I've seen in Guatemala and also in Honduras and other countries, where they catch somebody with a child, they won't even let the cops get involved. The whole village will come out and torture them alive. You know they'll do the, you know like put the tires around the person, put gasoline and then line them up and God forbid the cops try to step in.
Speaker 1:Don't lynch the cops yeah, no, that's uh, that's how it is. I, uh you talked about santaria. Uh, for those people that don't know, it's uh, it's quite a phenomenon. It's a mix of african religion with catholicism. And we used to have the boats. They would put chicken blood on the customs boats. Remember that.
Speaker 1:And I actually did a search warrant on a case one of my Evelyn Bison Papa, who I'll be tied to the rest of my life with her arrest and release. One of the principals in there had a Santero altar in West Kendall and we went in and they had a box for an Uzi machine gun in there and one of the agents the guy wasn't going to talk and when he was face down facing the altar, we asked him donde esta pistola? My Spanish, but he had it in the attic directly above. So you're right, the whole culture is different and they're going to size you up too. Your accent was different and how you dress. If you dress with nice shoes, they know that they think that you have money and then when they go to your office, if you have a generic office with no protocol of family pictures or things like that, then it's going to be suspicious and put you in danger.
Speaker 1:So, matt, where do you see? I have one more question and I'll let Jeff go when do you see the program? How is it continuing with Operation Underground Railroad? What are the future objectives that you have?
Speaker 2:All right, we are moving still in heavily in assisting the healthcare proactively. I think we're moving or I've seen at least here in Panama we're trying to move them more to local cops, to cybernetic area where we can develop units in Panama proactively. Child exploitation images that people move in the black web or through certain platforms, cryptic platforms, pornographic material, children. So for me, panama would be a big push for that, because in certain countries Colombia, costa Rica and some of Central America you still have a lot of sexual tourism and some of these people come down here for half sex with children. Sometimes they like to take pictures or have a trophy. They like to take pictures or have a trophy, but they'll start and you'll have local predators looking through social media enticing kids. So I want to expand that here in Central America a proactive system. We can assist them with software and training the law enforcement in this matter and adjusting the laws to that so they can prosecute these people online looking for sharing these images and or looking for kids online to get them to meet somewhere.
Speaker 2:Kids online to get them to meet somewhere um the evening or that, because as technology evolves, things evolve, um, the police have to keep up and they don't. Sometimes they don't have the resources, like sometimes we do in the states, um to to do this and keep it up. And the reason we had to do it with them is because this is something that we as a private entity can't do. It has to be authorized law enforcement that can do this and have possession of these images. I mean, if we were to do that, a contractor that I would hire to help me, I mean they wouldn't have been jailed just for the mere possession of an image or recruiting for someone sending them an image. It has to be law enforcement, or recruiting or someone sending them an image. It has to be law enforcement. We can help them in the technology. How do you approach? How do you speak online? How do you cover your IPs? How do you set up fake profiles to proactively be out there looking for these online printers?
Speaker 1:I just have to tell you you had the fastest retirement I've ever seen. I'm talking to you and then let's see. You left on a Friday and you started the new job on a Monday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was quick.
Speaker 1:That's legendary. It's not quick, it's legendary to do something like that. To do something like that. We've had some guests that have retired in like two weeks and that but two days. That's a record, my friend. I look forward to seeing you soon and best, and what a view you have down there, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:Hey man, both of you, come on down to Kessler. You got a path torasher.
Speaker 1:Come enjoy Miami Light as I call it, miami.
Speaker 3:Light. I like that Sign me up. Thanks a lot, Ruben. Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Ruben Bye.
Speaker 3:Take care guys.
Speaker 1:See you.