Justice Then, Justice Now
This podcast explores the American criminal justice system from all angles, including perspectives from: law enforcement, prosecution, inmates, fugitives and everything in between.
Justice Then, Justice Now
Ep 8: Vanessa Rojas - Healing In Prison Through Therapy and Mentorship
Join us in this powerful episode as we sit down with Vanessa Rojas, Evelyn Bazon-Pappa, and Damaris Ramos Hernandez, to explore their extraordinary journeys from the depths of federal incarceration to becoming beacons of hope and mentors for others. Vanessa's heartbreaking story of childhood trauma, addiction, and the struggles of single motherhood, including caring for a special needs child, sets the stage for an emotional and inspiring conversation. At FCI Tallahassee, Evelyn's mentorship provided Vanessa with the strength and guidance needed to turn her life around and seek a brighter future.
We take a deep dive into the transformative power of therapeutic programs such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), and the Residential Drug Abuse Program (RDAP). These therapies have been pivotal in helping Vanessa and others understand and manage their emotions, leading to meaningful personal growth and recovery. Vanessa's candid reflections on her past, from early gang involvement and drug trade to the soul-crushing moments of federal imprisonment, provide a raw and gripping narrative that highlights the complex interplay between addiction, crime, and redemption.
Our conversation also tackles the broader issues within the prison system, shedding light on the challenges of reintegration and the urgency for prison reform. Vanessa's advocacy work, driven by her own experiences and the promise she made to help others, shines a spotlight on the need for compassionate release and community support as essential components of successful reintegration. We conclude with heartfelt stories of resilience and the tireless efforts to support incarcerated women in Colombia, emphasizing the unyielding spirit of those fighting for change and a second chance at life. Don’t miss this episode filled with true stories of resilience, mentorship, and the relentless pursuit of redemption.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
Today for another edition of Justice Then Justice. Now. We have two very good guests today Vanessa Rojas and Evelyn Bazon-Papa. Vanessa is reaching out from San Diego area today and Evelyn is reaching out from Barranquilla, colombia. Okay, and I'm glad they're here. Ladies, nice to see you today, good to see you too Good to be here.
Speaker 1:I made it despite the rainstorm today from Miami. They let me on the plane. Anyway, this is going to be a unique show today because these two people know each other very well under adverse circumstances, but both of them have been very successful in getting out of that situation and moving forward. In getting out of that situation and moving forward. I'll start with you, evelyn. Evelyn and I have a history of over 30 years now of knowing each other in different time warps I guess you'd call it of that and I know her entire family and you've seen episode one and there'll be more episodes on that also to talk about. And through Evelyn, I met Vanessa, her over LinkedIn all the time, and she is a professor at school and a mentor out there and she is for advocacy for the first step and second chances of inmates in the correctional system. She knows everybody in California that's trying to get clemency, trying to get pardoned out there, and a very hard worker. And, more important, she's a mother and she has a very dear daughter to her that she cares for constantly, daughter to her that she cares for constantly, as every mother should. And I'm glad to have both you ladies here today and I guess we'll start this out.
Speaker 1:Evelyn's background. We know she was a sentenced federal prisoner, or inmate rather, and she served 26 years in Tallahassee Federal Correctional Institution. And Vanessa also was a former federal inmate and she served time, and I'll let her explain her situation. And the two of them encountered each other at Tallahassee, florida, not at a Florida State game, but at the institution there, became friends and Evelyn mentored Vanessa when she spent a while there. And I'll just leave it at that and I'll let you talk first, vanessa, if you could Let the audience know your background, where you came from, and move it forward until you met each other and your knowledge in the field is tremendous.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Toby. I'm really grateful to be on here and I want to thank you again for inviting us. So I'm not a professor.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were.
Speaker 3:I'm just a student and I work here for Palmer Community College in the president's office. I'm also a rising scholar, so I guess a little bit about my background is I experienced childhood trauma at a very young age. So I was sexually molested at a very, very, very young age and that kind of sent me on a destructive path which took me down a very dark time into addiction. So I got addicted to heroin and meth. So I got addicted to heroin and meth. During this time I just was lost and gave birth to three kids. My youngest has special needs. It requires 24 hours of care. I was involved in a like a cycle that I could never break free from. And being a mother, a single mother of the three children and my special needs daughter, you know that was kind of like it was really hard. It was hard. I'm very grateful that all three of them are alive. I'm grateful that I have them. You know they're all adults. I'm grateful that I'm able to be there. They're all adults. I'm grateful that I'm able to be there, be present, and they're seeing me sober now.
Speaker 3:So I was in and out of jail for 20 years I guess, maybe a little bit longer. I never really got off successfully off probation for county probation. I ended up getting caught up in a federal indictment with 55 other defendants and I got sentenced to 80 months in federal prison and I was sent to. I pled guilty. It was a conspiracy to distribute heroin and I was sent to FCI Tallahassee, which kind of was like something we weren't prepared for. So I was sent there and it pretty much was like one family crisis after another. I was on a lot of medication at the time too, because I had a diagnosis of schizoaffective bipolar disorder which I believe was all drug induced, because I never really gave my brain time to heal. So while I was out there, the first year was probably the worst year for me because I was so far. I've never been away from my family that long, not that far away, and I pretty much slept the first year of prison just in denial looking for a way to get closer to home. And I knew Evelyn because she worked in the chapel and I spoke with her a few times. I would go to the service there a few times.
Speaker 3:I kind of was like in a state of searching for a meaning for my life, for why I ended up there, what I could have done different. So I spent like a lot of time reflecting on my past and my choices and really doing a lot of introspection and, um, I got off on my meds, which was something that I'm so grateful that I was able to do, but I kind of did it cold turkey. So I went through a lot of like discomfort but I had the psychiatrist there was was really a good psychiatrist and he encouraged me. He was, he backed me up 100% because I was. I was very transparent about my situation and my goals and everything that was going on.
Speaker 3:So, like I said, I was experiencing one family crisis after another and at one point I had lost all my faith and my hope when I didn't think I would have a family to come home to, because every single member of my family was sick and my mother was a primary caretaker of my special needs daughter and my son had a cancerous tumor in his lung. My oldest daughter had Graves disease and my mom was like on her deathbed and I was working in Unicor at the time and I was in the back and I distinctly remember this memory. I was in the back because I couldn't even be on the phone. I was like devastated and I was crying and I couldn't get through. It was a call center, so I couldn't even get through a phone call without crying. And so I spoke to the um, the warehouse manager, and I said look, I can't even like put me in the shoe, whatever. I just I can't work today. And this is what's going on. And I told her what was happening and she's like go, go, sit in the back, take the day off. And I was back there and I was just like crying, I couldn't pull myself together because I didn't have any hope. You know, and this was maybe about a year and a half, two years into my 80 sentence spin.
Speaker 3:So then Evelyn comes up to me and she just grabbed my face. She just came up to me I'm sorry, I'm going to get emotional. No, please do. She grabbed my face. She grabbed my face and she started kissing me on the cheeks and she's telling me don't give up, don't give up, whatever it is you're going through, don't give up. She's's like I've been here 25 years and I still have faith and I'm not going to give up. And she's just encouraging me, encouraging me, and that really like snapped me back into reality and I'm thinking like, wow, what am I crying about? This lady's been here. She's like I have a life sentence, I've been here 25 years and I'm not giving up. And I'm and I just snapped me back to reality and I'm thinking like, wow, what am I crying about? I'm going to go home someday.
Speaker 3:And I saw, like I saw things differently from that moment and I remember I had graduated RDAP and they moved me over to the honor dorm, which was where Evelyn was at, moved me over to the honor dorm, which was where Evelyn was at. So, um, I think we just gravitated towards each other. You know, um our faith. You know, like I said, I had lost my faith, but then something happened while I was in prison when, during that time, um, where I had like a spiritual encounter and, um, everything changed, everything changed. And I know, I know like a spiritual encounter and everything changed, everything changed. And I know, I know, like it was apparent to everybody that something was different. And I think, without like getting into religion, because this has nothing to do with religion, this has to do with a personal connection I have with God and I think, once you realize that there is something to believe in, it just gives you hope. And so it gave me hope and I started helping Evelyn with things you know, emails and such.
Speaker 3:And one day I remember that I went into her cell. She wanted to talk and she told me her whole, whole, whole life story. It was just me and her. She brought out document after document and she was crying a lot and I felt like I had to be strong for her and I think I just knew, I just knew Evelyn was going to get out, I just knew. And so there was a lot of prayer and fasting involved and there was moments where things seemed hopeless, because I remember she was so sure she was going to get clemency from Trump and I remember we watched Trump walk out.
Speaker 3:We watched him his last day in office. We watched Trump walk out. We watched him his last day in office. We watched him walk out into his new, I guess, residence or not new residence, his Mar-a-Lago residence, and Evelyn was devastated and we're like what happened, like what just happened. You know, they pretty much said that it was going to happen. She was going to get clemency and it didn't happen, it didn't happen. She going to get clemency and it didn't happen, it didn't happen, she didn't get clemency through Trump and Evelyn was devastated, and I've never, seen Evelyn.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 3:I've never seen her devastated like that.
Speaker 1:I know the reason she didn't get clemency. We've talked about that and it was a very poor decision, not by the president, but by somebody underneath him that lives in your state. I'll just say that I don't talk politics, but the person lives in your state, okay, and we had a credibility problem. All right, that's all I'm going to say. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I wanted to be clear.
Speaker 3:It All right, that's all I'm going to say. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I wanted to be clear. It's okay, it's okay. So I just kind of had that like knowing. I just knew in my core that Evelyn was going to get out on a compassionate release. And I remember telling her that I said Evelyn, you're not getting out on clemency, You're getting out on compassionate release and I'm leaving right after you. And that's exactly what happened. I remember she came in to Unicorn. She was so happy that they granted her compassionate release. She was like dancing. She was dancing and the whole compound just celebrated that dancing. She was dancing and the whole compound just celebrated that, you know because if anybody deserved that, it was her.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was sitting at a van for eight hours, so waiting for that order to come through, okay my goodness yeah go ahead, yeah and and she.
Speaker 3:You know it took a minute for for them to let her go, you know, because, um, I don't know what happened, but that day that she thought for sure she was leaving, I remember, like I remember, that day she was a wreck of media outside and they ended up releasing her, like in the middle of the night, but we got to say goodbye. We got to say goodbye and it was during COVID, you know, and it was one of the best things that I've ever been a part of. I'm so grateful, that's great so grateful.
Speaker 1:She got to go to McDonald's too, so that was a nice retreat. Well, it's Well. I wanted to talk about you, though I have a couple questions Before we go back to your past and the gang activity and the smuggling. What did you do to get where you are now? Obviously, you went to FCI Tallahassee and you had a religious experience, which I understand, but what programs turned you into? You know, someday I'm going to be out and I'm going to turn my life around. What was available to you as an inmate?
Speaker 3:you as an inmate, I think you know I took advantage of all the programs there and I will stand by this 100%. The programs that I benefited the most from were the ones that were ran by the interns. Like, obviously I did benefit from RDAP because I learned a lot of things. And and what? What I realized was when you're able to acknowledge something, that's when you're able to change it. So not knowing that these thoughts, these, these um behaviors, these thought patterns, without acknowledging what they were, putting a name on them, was got me to like realize, okay, that's what it is, this is what's happening. So I did benefit from RDAT, but the most programming that I benefited from were the ones that were run by the interns and that would have been like the cognitive behavior therapy, the CBT, the DBT, anger management, emotional regulation.
Speaker 1:Can you go into that a little bit, because some of the people aren't going to understand what each one of these programs entails. So can you give me a better idea and our viewers?
Speaker 3:So, yes, so cognitive behavior therapy focuses, like, on your thought patterns and it gives you tools and I can't like exactly remember what it is, but I still I kept my books, I kept all my books and I do a lot of like follow up, reading on it. But, like the tools were like I guess it's it's replacing a bad thought with a better one, so always being aware of your thoughts and being in the present. You know, and I think that's important, like mindfulness, being mindful and always being in the present, because I catch myself, you know, worrying about things that haven't even happened yet. You know, and, like with RDAP, it's about rational self-analysis, so that it's all up here, everything's up here. It starts up here and I always talk about the three Cs that I learned in RDAP is your conditions, your cognitions and your choices. So your conditions, like the way you grow, grow up, your surroundings, your environment you don't have control of that, but that shapes your cognitions, that shapes your thought patterns and then your thought patterns affect your choices. So when you're able to understand certain things appear, it helps you make better choices.
Speaker 3:So I I think cognitive behavior therapy, a lot of the stuff that has to do with, like your cognitions, is what changed for me, I guess, what helped me have the awareness within myself that I needed to know where it all starts. It all starts up here, and and and the in the introspection and the reflecting that I did. You know, once I was able to grasp it all, then it all made sense to me. This is why I, this is why oh, okay, this is why this is why I do this, this is why I do that.
Speaker 3:So a lot of my time was spent, um, reading a lot of the so-called self-help books, just learning about myself. So you know, the thing about prison for me was, before I got there, I didn't know who I was because I didn't exist, and when I say that, because I was a shell, I was controlled by my addiction. So, in prison, getting clean, that was the only, probably the only good thing was the relationships I made in prison and the change that happened within me was, um, I found who I was. I was able to have my. I took my identity back, the identity that was stolen from me from a very young age my innocence.
Speaker 1:I found who I was in prison it's very well explained that they have these programs available. They're very, very important and you took advantage of it and I commend you on that and and that did you. Did you grow up in the San Diego area or did you come from Mexico?
Speaker 3:I grew up in Vista. No, no, I grew up in Vista, California. My mom is from San Miguel, Jalisco, my dad's from Texas. So I grew up in Vista. I grew up not really happy. I had everything I needed. But you know, when your identity is taken from you, you start looking for an identity and things that don't really serve a purpose in your life but destruction.
Speaker 1:Did you know? I agree with that. And did you? How did you get the first time addicted to narcotics? How? How did that happen? Through a boyfriend or from a peer, or that?
Speaker 3:That actually, um. So I used to steal my dad's weed when I was really little. I used to steal his weed, I used to smoke his weed and drink alcohol and then that led to just hanging out with older kids and you know, dabbling with meth, dabbling with acid and eventually heroin, which you know, older boyfriend, that's kind of what happened, okay, and how old were you when this? Started. My first like true, true addiction started when I was 11.
Speaker 1:Okay, I got addicted at 11. I know our audience is going to be shocked with that because usually it formulates junior high school, but you would have been in what, what? Fourth or fifth grade back then gosh, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Probably, maybe fifth, sixth grade was when I really started picking up still, that's. That's in pre-junior high, you know, and that junior high was a full-blown addict at junior high okay all right, and uh, was alcohol involved with this too?
Speaker 1:or just narcotics?
Speaker 3:There was alcohol involved, but not like on a daily basis. It's just. Whatever I could get my hands on was what I was going to get, what I was going to ingest. So, like if we would go camping with the family and friends in the summer and there was beer in the cooler. We're still in the beer and we're drinking it and we're getting drunk okay, um, did you get involved with uh gang activities?
Speaker 3:we have talked previously and uh would you explain how that came about um, it was more of the people that I hung out with, you know, and um, the father, my kids, um, it got more. I guess I was more involved once. Whenever he was locked up, I would get more involved because he wasn't around, um, and just because he had, like, I guess, status on the streets is what people would call it, and so people respected me because of him. So when he got locked up and we went our separate ways, um, I had to, like, earn my way, I guess, earn my own reputation, I guess, would be a way to put it without having to write on his reputation. So, um, yeah, it was. It was all drug related. You know, everything was the streets were not the same as when I was younger.
Speaker 1:It was all about drugs and basically, okay, the reason I and this show is going to be about it's about firsthand, it's not. We don't have political talking heads, we don't have presidential appointees in Washington, we don't have people that so-called know-it-all experts, because they're not in that. So the reason I say this is I'm going to have on tomorrow the special agent in charge who was in Arizona about gang about mostly about drugs and border crossings and another guest that I'm going to have is an expert on gangs who was the president when she appointed US Marshal in San Antonio and he was the head of the gang unit there. So you're inside with this. I think will blend well with that for the public to understand that it starts out with addiction and I think you've pointed that out very, very well. So when you were involved and when did your ex-husband go to jail, was he your husband or your boyfriend or the father of your children?
Speaker 3:He was just the father, okay. I mean so a lot of times, you know, I think a lot of it it's also because of relatives, you know. So you have relatives, so you just are kind of born into it. I guess in a way he, the father of my kids, started getting more involved when he started getting arrested as a teenager, um, but his thing was always like he was the drug dealer but he also was involved in gang activity and those two things go hand in hand. And also, when you grow up in poverty you're more susceptible to getting drawn into that life, and as young kids you want to prove yourself, so you are the first one to, you know, get involved in the worst things to get a reputation. And he was involved in a lot of stuff at a very young age and so Okay, how old were you when you had your first child.
Speaker 3:I was 16. So I was 14 when I met him. Okay, I was 14 when I met him. I was 14 when I met him. We got together and I got pregnant at 15 and had her at 16.
Speaker 1:Okay, there's a pattern of abuse here with women. You know that's happened and it does that. I mean I was, when I learned that Evelyn, you know she was married at 14 and she had her keen say after that. That's just off the charts, you know, and, and that people don't understand that. So you, you were, you were, you know lack of a better word enthralled in this lifestyle, along with your addiction, and you brought up how it came about. How did it get worse? What happened after that, where you got the attention of law enforcement?
Speaker 3:How did it get worse?
Speaker 3:Meaning like what led up to the indictment, or yeah, yeah, how did? What was the indictment all about? You know? You know what. What got worse was my appetite for the drug got worse. So then I started getting involved with people south of the border and that just was through mutual contacts, right. But then my connections down there got like pretty, it was pretty crazy. It was a pretty crazy time.
Speaker 3:From what? From what I can remember, because a lot of it there's years where I don't remember a lot. A lot of it's a blur, a lot of it's a blackout and I was doing some pretty crazy things that like even now, when I think about it, like what was I thinking? You know, I'm going to Mexico by myself at three o'clock in the morning and I don't even like, not even knowing where these people are, just directed to go a certain place and I saw a lot of things.
Speaker 3:You know, I saw a lot of things down there and and I don't even talk about everything that I was involved in, I don't talk about and I probably never will, I probably never will, but it was a pretty scary time but I just I thought it was invincible, maybe because, you know, when you're on drugs you just don't think about the dangers and and um, I survived it. You know, through the, through the grace of God, I survived those things and um, it was, it was that that's pretty much what it was was my appetite for? For the drug it wasn. It had nothing to do with the money. It had nothing to do with the money, it just had to do with for me, it had to do with the high Just having enough drugs to get high on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when were you indicted and was it under the conspiracy case? Like you said, there were multiple defendants a conspiracy case.
Speaker 3:Like you said, there were multiple defendants. Yeah it, I got indicted in 2017 and I didn't even know I was being watched by the feds. Okay, I didn't even know like that thought never occurred to me. Not, I mean, I I guess in a way I always knew I was going to end up in prison. I just never in a million years thought I would get indicted federally and end up in federal prison.
Speaker 1:Had you been in prison before? No, just jail, just jail, just jail. Possession charges Possession.
Speaker 3:You know the majority. I have a pretty thick jacket but the majority of those arrests are all like violation of probations, um, so like um being remanded back into jail to because I violated for dirty, you know, and and I had, like I remember, one time one of my probation officers like this is your 12th dirty, I don't know what to do with you, 12 dirties in a row. That meant like she let me slide 12 times and she's like I don't even know what else to do with you. She's and she ordered me to go in front of the judge that day. So from her, from her office, I and this, this, I remember this because I know this happened a few times. I went from her office to report to the judge and I'm sitting there in front of the judge and he's looking, you know, at the file in front of him and he's shaking his head and he's just like he looked at me like Mrs Rojas. He's like I've never seen a toxicology report this alarming. He's like I don't even know how you're alive right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know how you're standing up breathing. He's like I have to put you in jail to save your life. He's like I hope you understand that's what I'm doing, like I'm trying to save your life, and that happened a few times and um, so this was in 2017 and well that time. What I'm talking about that was in 2015. No, this is prior.
Speaker 1:I understand, and you were indicted where Out of this Southern District of California.
Speaker 3:Yes, southern District of California. The name of the indictment was called Operation no Worries.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you just came, you were sentenced, you were in pretrial, and then you were sentenced and surrendered, or the marshals took you out to Tallahassee. How did that work, or BOP?
Speaker 3:Okay, so I went. I got out on pretrial. My mom put up the property to bail me out. Okay, so she bailed me out. I got out on pretrial. My mom put up the property to bail me out. Okay, so she bailed me out, I got out, I got picked up by pretrial, they took me straight to a program and then I was out. I think it was 10 months and I had to report for sentencing. And I reported for sentencing on October 10th, which happens to be my mother's birthday.
Speaker 1:Oh boy, october 10th which happens to be my mother's birthday, oh boy.
Speaker 3:And so, october 10th 2017, I reported for sentencing and the judge sentenced me to 80 months, which was the lower end of my guidelines and I remember he gave me permission to hug my mom, you know, and before they took me back, and I have never seen my mom that devastated in her life. I, I, that look haunted me. It still haunts me. Um, when I hugged her, it was the most the look of utter despair and and my, my worry was that my mom was not going to survive my prison sentence and, um, that my, my special needs daughter was going to end up in the system.
Speaker 1:But that's not what happened my mother's still alive by the grace of god and I'm all.
Speaker 3:Three of my kids are alive. I'm'm a grandma now. I have two granddaughters Wow.
Speaker 2:Great.
Speaker 3:But definitely Tallahassee.
Speaker 1:Grand babies. Right, that's what Damaris calls them.
Speaker 3:Yeah they're babies.
Speaker 4:Grand babies, they're babies.
Speaker 3:Grand babies, what happened in Tallahassee, you know, not just the good things, the bad things that happened. There is kind of what put me on this path of advocacy and wanting to change policy is when I saw how the system what it from the inside. When I saw how the system is from the inside and the corruption and the gaps that need to be filled and the lack of accountability on the BOP. So, and these women that are stuck behind the walls, women like Evelyn that are stuck there because of the sentencing policies, women that are rehabilitated and are helping other women that are stuck behind the walls and have no avenue to get out, their have been, you know, their. Their clemencies have been denied, their motions have been denied and there's just no way out for them and they're just taking up space and when they could be out here, out here, making change happen out here.
Speaker 3:You know it's very unjust and that's kind of what put me on the path to, you know, education. And I just knew, I just knew that just open that door, let me out, and I promise I made a promise to God that I promise you you get me out of here. I'm going to make sure that everybody that comes into my path is going to benefit from knowing me one way or another, and that I'm going to somehow get in a place where I'll be able to change the policy and help these women and men that are stuck behind the walls, help them get out and keep them out.
Speaker 1:And so our viewers know Tallahassee is the maximum security prison. There are some really, really bad female prisoners that are in there. I mean, you know you have examples like here that have been rehabilitated and they're out, but there are people that should not get out. I mean, I feel this is my personal opinion If you kill a cop, you're gone. If you're in there because you molest children and they're killed, you're gone and and that. But it seems to me and you guys were in the honor section, which would you explain that a little bit so our viewers understand what the honor section is?
Speaker 3:what the honor section is. Evelyn, you want to take that?
Speaker 1:Damaris, go ahead Anybody.
Speaker 3:Somebody, anybody, both of us. Okay, I'll share.
Speaker 4:The honor side was mainly for people that behaved well inside the prison. And, toby, I respect your view and, even being on both sides because, remember, I always share with you that my father was a police officer for over 34 years and I was also at the same time I got in trouble when I was young. I ended up in prison, and that's how I met Evelyn, and I believe in the public's protection.
Speaker 4:Okay, so I agree with your point that you're right, everybody does not deserve to get out yes and the problem with the bop modus operandi is because they actually put all so many people together with so many level of security and I always had a problem with that and we were we inside.
Speaker 4:I have one of my good friends, mark Farland, which you met over the phone. We created a program. It was called the I Am Program because we wanted to help people coming in. That way, the people that were waiting to actually pray on these people would have that opportunity to pray on the people I always mention. Remember inmates and convicts. It's all two different things. So I believe in crime deterrence, but at the same time, this is a major business and there are real people behind the four walls that should not be in prison for 10, 20, 15 years life. You know, I think the budget for the Bureau of Prisons is like $50 billion. They don't even invest that kind of money in education in the United States of America. So, yes, inside the four walls they were the honor unit, where people that behaved well were recompensed and went in there in different. It was more rooms instead of cubicles. I mean, this didn't feel like a hotel either. Right, because you're secluded in yeah, away from family.
Speaker 4:They made a song called hotel california yeah, I always wonder what that song meant, Because my Puerto Rican brain I'm like what does that mean? I grew up in the 70s. Is that a ghost or something? So the Eagles?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the first time I heard it I was like wait a minute, what's this about prison? And they said no, no. And then I listened to the words and yeah, yeah so the honor unit.
Speaker 4:It was to allow people that behaved well, allow people that behaved well put in a. There were nicer rooms and we kept it very clean. However, it didn't stop from. Prison is a really bad place to be, but at the same time, it could be a place to save people okay, to save the public from all these crimes that are being committed, you know, but at the same time, I love the fact that we're bringing these conversations to the table to bridge the gap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a criminal justice program. It's, I think, at everybody's point of view and it has the extremes on both and in between. And when this was first discussed with the producer, jeff, we talked about this and I said no, no.
Speaker 1:I know the cops, you know, I know the agents, but at the same time I've learned about the inmates, you know, and I understand that. And so we're trying to create a balanced program where we have not just one side or this, and that we have everybody on here. You know, and like today I don't know if you've seen our second episode came out with Paul Pelletier.
Speaker 4:When you sent me the message, I looked it up. Didn't get a chance to listen to it, but I did see his face on the video. Yeah, when you watch it, I will watch it it's, uh, it's very, I think, entertaining.
Speaker 1:You know, I've known him a long time and I agree. I agree with that too yeah, if you, if you watch it you'll, I think everybody will enjoy watching him, as the prosecutor had the defense hat. You know the stuff that he did. He was a pioneer. So uh with that. But um no, I, I, I think it's great you guys are here, because there were problems in tallahassee. I know from listening to everybody on what was there. No, I know.
Speaker 1:Probably, I know I know I've heard the female point of view from Amy from Dublin and what happened there and the transfers and everything. So it's a learning experience for me too. I was a marshal for eight years. Yes, so I went to you know. Well, now it's Supermax in Colorado, but the one that was in Marion Illinois. I've handled the Aryan Brotherhood, I've handled all the prison gangs and everything. So I think it's a good conversation.
Speaker 4:And, if I may add, if you allow me, toby, one thing that I learned is that they were amazing staff.
Speaker 4:They were really amazing staff in Tallahassee that we've become friends with and I still talk to them even years out and one what was the difference between the amazing staff and the others is that the amazing staff believed in people going into the system as a total institution for rehabilitation, okay, and and they used their tools given by the bureau of prisons to to facilitate rehabilitation. But then you had the ones that just wanted to punish the inmates, and that is not their place. You're there to just do your job right the protection and safety and security but you don't punish people because they know you already punished. You have a sentence and you go in there to do your sentence right, to serve your sentence, and that was a major difference. So I think the training that a lot of the staff receive can make a whole difference as well. I saw people that were, you know, going there and become very rebellious for things that were done to them by the not so amazing staff.
Speaker 1:For things that were done to them by the not so amazing staff. Yeah, I mean, I looked at it when I was an agent. It was strictly professional business. I didn't take any vindictive or joy out of incarcerating somebody or doing an investigation. It was my job. I mean, that's what I did did. My job was to do that, and in a correctional environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to stop violence within the institution because if it spreads like I remember in atlanta in 87 they had I think it was 87, 91 they had the big takeover of the whole prison and it was a bloody conflict, you know. But no, there should be. No, there's a rule that I always had and I think a good cop has when the cuffs are on, everything's over, that's it. You know, if the guy's fighting you, you defend yourself, but when the cuffs go on, that's the end. That's what I was trained under. But let me go back and I'm jumping around because I have three people that are experienced and that's great for the viewers. For the viewers, when you came to Tallahassee, you obviously came from a different culture on the border in California to there. I mean, was it a big change for you, vanessa, coming from there to, shall we say Redneck Land, you know.
Speaker 3:It was a culture shock for me. So and that was the first thing that I noticed, because I guess, from what I understand, Tallahassee is considered part of the Deep South People without sounding I don't want this to come off as sounding mean, but I think the best way to describe it it's just a whole different breed of of women put it that way yes, um a different, a different breed of women.
Speaker 3:It's not anything I was used to. So in California, you know, I grew up around Sureños, Sureñas, Chicanas, Chicanos there's a level of, I guess, respect street code that we live by. Forget it, because in Tallahassee it's just, it's different, it's different, oh my gosh. So you know, you know what? What immediately caught my attention about the institution was the way some of the COs interacted with some of the incarcerated women. It's like sometimes you would hear the conversations like they're just kicking it on the block. I just really didn't care to be accepted, though I was in a place where you know what, I wasn't wanting to make friends. Really I didn't want to make friends, I just wanted to get through my sentence, my bid. I was miserable the first couple years there. Miserable, I wasn't good company, I was just miserable.
Speaker 1:How many years were you incarcerated?
Speaker 2:Four.
Speaker 1:Okay there, and you had a compassionate release also.
Speaker 3:Yes, Can you explain that?
Speaker 1:how that happened, yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, my case is not unique in any way, but it has its twists and turns. So I got the Second Chance Act, which was a year of halfway house, but I also got the year off for RDAP. I didn't ask for the year of halfway house. It was just really weird, I halfway house. It was like it was just really weird, I think, because I was, I was keeping, I was holding them accountable to a lot of things without writing them up. I was holding them accountable to a lot of things and they basically I joke about this because it's funny when I think about it I had a notepad that I carried around with me everywhere and anytime I'd speak to a staff member, I would. I would have my questions ready, like, okay, I'm going to go to mainline, I'm going to speak to the um CM what was it? The CMC? I'm going to speak to the CM.
Speaker 1:I have my questions ready. What's the CMC is? Is that like the SIS?
Speaker 3:No, the person over the case managers like the person over the unit managers, the case manager.
Speaker 3:So anytime I had a question, I had my notepad with me and I would go up. I had my questions ready and I would write down the date and time and I would ask my questions and I would write down everything they would tell me like verbatim. I'd write it down, all the answers, and and if I knew they were wrong I will. I would like back it up with policy. Well, according to program statement. Well, actually, you know, this is what's supposed to be. So I was holding them accountable to a lot of things because we were being lied to about a lot of things and I would always follow up with an email. But I was keeping a record of every conversation I had with them, everything that was happening there. I was keeping a record of it. I never, really I never wrote anybody up. I never wrote any staff member up, because I know how retaliation works. I know what happens when you do that. I was about to say that up because I know how retaliation works.
Speaker 1:I know what happens when you do that. I was about to say that yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't. I didn't write them up. I wrote one incident up. It was an incident, it wasn't a staff member, it was a situation which I did write it up which we didn't get fed one night during COVID. They forgot to feed us because they were bringing the food to us and they forgot to feed us. So I wrote that up. But that was the only thing I ever did. I didn't write any staff members up. I did, though I did write the inspector general. I got some mail out to an inspector general, but I was keeping a record of everything. And so when I asked my case manager, well, how much halfway house time are you going to give me? He's like well, we're going to give you the whole year, because we're trying to get rid of you as soon as possible.
Speaker 1:And I took that. I knew that was coming. Yes, right.
Speaker 3:Like I took that like okay, well, I must be doing something right Because women here beg for a year of halfway house. They beg for it and you will hear them in there like stroking the case manager's ego to try and get them. I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to stroke anybody's ego or kiss anybody's behind to get it. So that was handed to me, that the year of halfway house was handed to me. Now I had wrote a letter during COVID. So so what happened was I wrote a letter to fam families against mandatory minimums during COVID, asked just telling them my situation, that I felt like I was a candidate for compassion release, never heard anything back. So when, during like the George Floyd thing during COVID, when just the nation was just shutting down like the mail system was getting disrupted, there was like protests, there was all this stuff happening and I just knew that I had to get this compassionate release motion in front of this judge. So I hand wrote mine. I hand wrote it because they didn't even like this lockdown.
Speaker 1:This is the same judge that was hard nose at sentence you yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, yes, go ahead.
Speaker 3:The same judge. I hand wrote my motion. I even spelt some words wrong because I didn't have like a dictionary or anything, no access to law library, nothing, because all the computers were. We weren't allowed to leave a unit. So, and the stamp situation was another crisis. They were running out of stamps, the store didn't have stamps.
Speaker 3:So I was in a hurry to get this motion out because I knew that the country was shut down. Um, the courts were not like taking in people from the public. They're just doing some weird, I guess, online courts and stuff. And, um, I I mailed that motion out just in faith that, hoping and praying that it was going to get to my judge. Now, remember, I said I had wrote a letter to FAM. So I'd never heard anything back from FAM. So then I still hadn't got my halfway health state yet. So this was during. Covid hadn't got my halfway health state yet. So the government responded, of course, denying my motion or opposing it, opposing it. And then the judge replied denying my motion because he said I didn't exhaust my administrative remedies, so, but he left the door open for me to refile.
Speaker 3:That day that I got a denial from the judge. I just kind of like you know what, I'm just going to do my time. I'm just going to do my time. I'm kind of just done with this and there's so many other people that need help and I know I was helping Evelyn, I was helping a lot of the other women there with their like administrative remedies, with their emotions and stuff like that, and so I just left it alone. That same night I got called back to get some legal mail, which was a letter from an attorney who BAM reached out to and she agreed to take on my case pro bono. So she filed a compassionate release motion. It sat on the judge's desk for nine months.
Speaker 3:So during that time that's when I got my halfway house time so I was already out the door they flew me to San Diego. I checked into the halfway house and then my daughter, my oldest daughter, ended up in the hospital like almost dying. And that was when I'm like why is this judge not letting me go? Like he's still sitting on my motion? I'm already halfway out the door. So I called my attorney. I'm like look, what can we do? My daughter's in the hospital. She's going to have emergency surgery tomorrow and she's like well, it's not going to hurt to file supplemental motion, so let me just get that. And then I, at the time, the halfway house was not allowing us to visit or leave or do anything like that other than go to work, which made no sense to me, because they don't want us to have any social visits, but they want us to take public transportation to work. This is during COVID lockdown. That was their excuse.
Speaker 3:So I went and I spoke to the person that was in charge there at that night. He was nobody liked him. He was another tough one, another one like that was really mean. So I worked up the nerve to talk to him. I got in the med line. I didn't take meds, but I got in the med line because I knew he was in the room and I wanted to get him alone. I didn't want to ask in front of anybody, but I was gonna tell him when I got, when I he got to me, I went in there.
Speaker 3:I said look, I don't. You know I don't mess around, I'm not, you see me. I don't get in trouble, I'm about, you know, getting through, I go, but I need your help. It took everything out of me to talk to this man, cause he was a type of person that he wouldn't even look at us in the eyes. He had so much disdain for us and he treated us that way. So I looked at him. I'm like I need your help.
Speaker 3:And this is what's happening my oldest daughter's in the hospital. She's going to have emergency surgery in the morning and I'm about to get an escape charge because I need to go see her. I don't know if she's going to make it out of surgery. Please, please, help me. If not, I'm leaving and I'm letting you know. Twice they let me out to see her twice, which I'm very, very grateful that I was able to be there for her. So the judge ended up giving me a compassionate release because of that supplemental motion. So I did get a compassionate release and I had to serve out the remainder of my sentence on home confinement, which was fine. I got my compassion release and I thank God for FAM, I thank God for my attorney and just everybody that's helped me along the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 4:Amazing.
Speaker 1:It is. It is, and are you going to work towards your clemency now? Is that the next goal that you have, vanessa?
Speaker 3:Well, my next goal is I'm filing for early termination of probation. So that's in the process. Right now I'm filing for early termination of probation. I think I've done above and beyond what has been required of me on my conditions of probation. I do so much that the public doesn't even know about. I know, you see what I post on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram. I do so much more that I don't even like share with everybody. I go above and beyond, and not just because it's just my passion. It's just my passion. I think my calling in life is to be a vessel and just to help people. So I'm trying to get off early. Once I'm off early, I definitely am going to be filing for a pardon eventually.
Speaker 1:Good, okay, it's a great story, it's not a story, it's reality. Okay, and I don't think people realize this, you know.
Speaker 4:You know, what I love about her story is the resilience and her just not giving up, and I think it was my experience A lot of women. They just gave up. Women are different than men. We're not made to be so tough like that and I saw so many women with depression.
Speaker 1:Really they're not?
Speaker 4:Oh well, don't look at me like that because I know exactly what you're trying to say when you look at me like that. No, I'm laughing.
Speaker 1:I'm laughing. Stop it, Toby. Jeff, don't put this on. I've had two Hispanic ex-wives and they were really tough.
Speaker 4:Okay, but maybe your definition of tough is not the same definition of tough. I remember when I first went to the county jail when I was really young, they didn't even have panties for women, so if you were on your cycle you couldn't even have panties.
Speaker 1:The men didn't use them up, right. Well, because initially the system that's, well they. Because initially that's a bad joke.
Speaker 4:He's laughing at me the system you know, back in the days, I'm pretty sure, when you were in the in the system, there were not a lot of women incarcerated.
Speaker 1:You know, the system was never really built for a woman no, you know, you had to get a matron to sit there all night, that's right.
Speaker 4:So it has taken a long time for the system to evolve and I worked with. It was a parenting class and I did that for four years. I was very, very, very much involved in the community. When I was in Tallahassee, I worked with a lot of staff because I was bilingual and there were a lot of women from South America and everywhere that didn't speak the language, and I can share that with Vanessa and Evelyn we love people we love to help people.
Speaker 1:You obviously had very good instructors in Tallahassee that taught women that didn't speak any English how to speak good English.
Speaker 4:That's right. And then and I'm funny too- We'll talk after this, and so the point is you know her resilience. I think it was amazing.
Speaker 1:No, it is.
Speaker 4:And I saw so many women just give up and they were just so depressed, the despair I have never. I think I've never been around so much despair in my life Like the depression. People will walk around and you could sense that darkness and it's just whatever they carried. And when I worked with she was a community leader in Tallahassee. I worked with her for four years and we would do a lot of assessment and in our classes of 20, 30, or 40 women, the amount of children between all of them will add up to sometimes a hundred. Like how in the world can you have that amount of women with that amount of biological children? Okay, and who takes care of those children is usually the parents, the grandmother the grandmothers I know that I I know my pocket says it right now we're all for and and and.
Speaker 4:So do they have resources to help woman? I think they do. Can they have more and do more? Definitely, because most of this woman, at some time in their life, will be released back to society. We can be your neighbors, right, okay, we're friends, right, and it will make a whole difference in going back to those children and raising the children and breaking that cycle of incarceration and recidivism and gosh, we can talk about it all night. So I definitely commend you know, vanessa. I have never heard her story fully and I'm just thinking about how resilient. I can't even imagine how the staff will react and that's what I thought. I'm like they gave her that whole year of halfway house because they wanted to get rid of her. Like, oh my god, here she comes again with the pad and she's gonna write it down.
Speaker 1:I can't even see that what she's saying and I can follow this. You wore them down. That's exactly what happened yeah you wore them down. And the same thing with your, same thing with your uh release.
Speaker 4:Yes, amazing.
Speaker 1:That's a wild story. No, I've seen your work and in the short time I've known you, it's very commendable. You're in a state that I wouldn't want to live in personally, okay, and I think, without saying why, I just like it here in sunny Florida. Um and that, um, okay, do you do you? Um, you're still you're, are you still on? Are you still on parole or probation, or is that done? I wasn't following that.
Speaker 3:I'm still on federal probation.
Speaker 1:For how long? How much longer.
Speaker 3:I have about four years left, I believe a little less than four years. So I got sentenced to 80 months with six years of probation, federal probation. So I have that much time left.
Speaker 1:Are they letting you cause you're at VC work, are they? Are they allowing you to travel and and do that?
Speaker 3:Yes, I actually have a really, really supportive probation officer. I've been blessed. I've been so blessed in so many ways and I thank God for that. I have a really supportive probation officer who approves because she knows what I'm about. You know, and I think I, I, I get offended when, when my integrity is being questioned. So I have enough with with probation, right, and so that's what it was in the beginning, because they didn't know me.
Speaker 3:You know, so they know that I've been so consistent that she doesn't question my integrity because I'm so straightforward with them and and she knows what I'm about, you know, and, um, I have so much proof of what I do. You know, like, like, when I went to um seek an attorney to file to get off probation early, I went there ready with everything I needed and I had pictures to prove it, I had awards, I had certificates and I just sat there we're in this conference room and I'm like, look, you guys represented me on my compassionate release. I thank you for that, but this is why I'm here. I want to file early because I've done this, bam, I thank you for that, but this is why I'm here. I want to file early because I've done this. Bam, I threw a picture down. I met this senator. Bam, I threw a picture down. I've been here. I've been there. I presented at this conference. I'm doing this.
Speaker 3:I had like a whole pile of stuff to show him and his eyes just got really big and he's just like, I mean, for a good 45 minutes. I'm just talking about all the stuff I've done since I've been out. I've been out two and a half years and every week I have something new to like add. Okay, well, this is what I did this week. This is what I did, this is what I'm doing, this is what's going on.
Speaker 3:And he was just like, wow, he's'm gonna beg my supervisor to take your case. He's like this is why your case is why I do what I do. This is the reason. And he's like I. He was just so impressed and it's not that I was trying to impress him, I was just showing him look, this is what I'm doing, this is why I need to get off, because now probation is arance, because I can't always get ahold of my probation officer to ask to travel outside of the county, you know, and I have to ask for permission, I have to submit a form, and sometimes she's gone wherever they go for trainings for, sometimes up to weeks.
Speaker 3:So and I'm not saying it's her fault, you know it's, it's her job she, she's not always going to be there, but sometimes I get last I have to do like last minute requests to travel for my job, and so I don't always get those approved. So now I'm getting asked to go to other parts of the world now. So I've been asked to go to the UK, I've been asked to go to Australia to speak, and now this is now. This is just cut me loose already. You know so, god willing, that's going to happen soon too.
Speaker 1:How long have, how long have you been drug free?
Speaker 3:I'm going to so my. My clean date is going to be November 9th. It'll be seven years. Okay, so I got over six years. Seven years, this is the longest since I was 11. Okay, the longest.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's great, that's great. Evelyn, you're too quiet, I just. I think the grand, grand babies are in the background. It's obvious that you're you're playing the role of grandmother and doing this stuff. So yeah, we need to bring her.
Speaker 3:We need to bring her to the us. Well, I think it's time.
Speaker 1:I think there's a good chance that people will support that you know and that. So I mean she had another birthday yesterday, so you know that's you know she's trying to catch up to somebody that's close to 70. But we won't talk about that.
Speaker 3:You know, when Domides right now was talking about the despair in prison, you know the hopelessness, the despair. It just brought me back to that memory of that moment. When Evelyn came up to me, when I was in that moment of despair, when she just was holding my face and kissing me on the cheek, telling me not to give up. That is what I needed to get the fight back in me. That moment was so pivotal for me and that's why, like Evelyn is just part of my heart.
Speaker 1:She always will be okay well, I'm glad I was able to reunite everybody here. I mean, you know the technology. Thank God for Jeff.
Speaker 2:I know right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, he knows what he's doing with the podcast business. And I got to give a shout out to Beth too, of course, because you know she's a straw that stirs a drink with this operation is a drink with this operation. We interviewed the head of DEA in Mexico City, in Bogota, the other day. I worked cases with him back in the early 90s. An amazing person, and he seems to really fear the border now with fentanyl coming in. It's the worst drug of all time. And the laxness I mean you can put something in china, ship it to mexico, disguise it and just bring it in and kill people. That's what it does.
Speaker 4:It kills people, okay the statistics over 125 people are dying of fentanyl, every single day.
Speaker 1:Lakeland, florida. That's the population of that. So I'm hoping that they I'm a conservative guy, I am, and I hope we get back to the interdiction that we had and everything else. And you know that we had and everything else. And you know, I found, in doing these interviews and the future ones that have responded positively to me, they realized that I was doing my job and if I had to do it again, I'd do it the same way. You know, and you know, like I said, everybody deserves a second chance, except for the categories that I laid out for you before.
Speaker 4:You know, and hopefully we get this, this message across, because I see too much in the media now where you're either on one side or the other, exactly you know the criminal justice system and you know I'm glad you bring that up because that's why I'm always like really behind the scenes and I've talked to you about it because I believe, strongly believe, in crime, deterrence and the safety of the public right, because I have children, I have grandbabies, but we lost that balance.
Speaker 4:You know you have the people that were released from prison. I've heard so many of them just bash law enforcement and talk so bad about the system and then the other way around and you know this is not to bring any controversy. We're trying to bridge the gap, have the conversation so we can have just programs and solutions for the real issues that are really in our backyard now.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, they gotta be solved, they have to be.
Speaker 4:They have to be, for example first, we have to definitely. And, like you say, you're conservative and I'm a conspiracy theorist, right, so I am a conservative as well.
Speaker 1:I know you are.
Speaker 4:And in the border. We definitely have to secure a border because all these drugs that are getting into the streets right now but at the same time we don't have enough drug programs. Now you have to have money, you have to have insurance. There's not really hardly any homeless shelters. So we have a major drug addiction in society right now, but there are not enough answers there either. So it works both ways.
Speaker 1:So this is amazing. It's this demand here in the United States that's a big problem. That's why the drug cartels are in business, because the demand is so high here in the US.
Speaker 4:It is.
Speaker 1:It's what it is. It's just off the charts now.
Speaker 4:Never. There's no other part of the world where there's so much drug consumption.
Speaker 1:No, no, and we've been the leader for almost 60 years now with that, you know, over and over. But the borders, I I think everybody would agree that you know that that needs to be solved pronto.
Speaker 4:I mean very much, very much, so you know now I I heard um somebody saying something about, um, this being a, um, like, um, something that is done on purpose to weaken our society, and I've, I look at it, I'm like, well, maybe it's not, but maybe it is like, I don't know right we'll find out so much going on that you're like is this on purpose, we'll find out. Right.
Speaker 1:We'll find out very soon. I just, you know I retired from ICE. Okay, so I'm not going to be impartial. You know I'm a retired supervisory special agent with ICE. I think you know where I stand on how to solve the problem. Okay, I think you need to build a few things.
Speaker 4:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And that's unfortunate. But we have to. We have to screen people coming in, we have to make sure that we're not letting terror. What I think is the big thing is terrorism, you know what's terrorism going to be like?
Speaker 4:No, any kind.
Speaker 1:Domestic and international. You know that's terrorism going to be like no any kind domestic and international. You know that's the whole thing with it. But I'm so glad you came on, vanessa, because also I look forward to. She's made referrals on people that I think will be fantastic to discuss. You're a very trusted person with all of them, otherwise they they wouldn't, and you've dedicated yourself, in other words, they wouldn't come on here. So I think that in the short time that you've been out and that your goals and ambitions are very, very, very positive. You know and I would tell you I don't know what kind of relationship you had with the agents that worked your case Maybe you should reach out to them too, because they can only help. Okay, because I have a couple people coming on that males that received life sentences and their agents supported them years later.
Speaker 1:You know years later, you know, like 30 years later, they supported them. So maybe something you and I can talk about in the future.
Speaker 3:We'll see. We'll see, I'm always open for a conversation, even if it's I'm just open. I'm open for the conversation.
Speaker 1:No, no it probably will be a good conversation now. Maybe back then it wouldn't have been a good conversation. I always kid around with Evelyn because she didn't speak English back then, but I understood Spanish.
Speaker 4:I can't imagine what she probably just mentioned your name, from the A to the C to the B.
Speaker 1:I'm sure it was a different tone in 1995. Way different. But anyway this has been great.
Speaker 4:I'm glad, I'm so glad I made it Toby, because I was stuck at work.
Speaker 1:You're a workaholic.
Speaker 3:I know she's very tired.
Speaker 4:Well, I remember. I'm a sales manager, so I have to be there.
Speaker 1:Heavy is the that wears the crown right, gotta wear it.
Speaker 3:I'm coming to Florida in October looking forward to seeing you.
Speaker 4:Then I'm going to come to San Diego.
Speaker 1:I have a friend that was a police officer he's going to be on.
Speaker 4:He's the one that trained me in 1976 that was a year after I was born, toby, I knew you were going to say that.
Speaker 1:I knew you were going to say that 1976. That was her year after I was born. Toby, what I was born, I knew you were going to say that I knew you were going to say that and he lives in Carlsbad and I go out every year to see him and I haven't been out yet, but we were talking Vanessa and I'm going to go out. I love it and he's a real character. You'll just love him when he's on. He was a disc jockey cop. He was different.
Speaker 4:So he would play like bad boys. Bad boys, what you gonna do? No, no, he played that. He played like doo-wop.
Speaker 1:Okay, you know what doo-wop is in New York? That's the street corner stuff. So you know he played that kind of stuff. You know what doo-wop is in New York? That's the street corner stuff. So you know he played that kind of stuff. You know he's still got the same. Oh, if he hears this, he's going to kill me Same hairstyle that when I met him. You know, wow, yeah, yeah, he's waxed. Fonzie, remember Fonzie?
Speaker 4:From Happy Days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that kind of hairstyle. I've had the same hairstyle too. You know I watched Saturday. No, I had a mustache in the 80s. But you know I saw Saturday Night Fever with John Travolta. Nothing changed. Nothing changed at all.
Speaker 3:He was the coolest guy back then. Oh he was. Everybody wanted to be him in the Fonz.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he had to be trained to dance though I think I'm a hopeless cause, you know but he went with Denny Terrio and trained him how to dance for that interesting movie. So yeah, but anyway, thank you so much ladies. Thank you, vanessa. Happy birthday Evelyn. Happy anyway, thank you so much ladies. Thank you, vanessa. Happy birthday Evelyn.
Speaker 4:Happy birthday.
Speaker 1:Thank you Happy 29th, that's when I met her. No, she was 31.
Speaker 2:Wow, 36, 36, 36. No.
Speaker 1:I met you when you were younger than that. Wow, I think you were 32, 33. And Vanessa, good luck with your family. Is your mom still alive? I forgot to ask you that. Yes, yes, my mother's still alive. How's she doing?
Speaker 3:She's doing okay. She's 81. She's doing okay. I want to say she's not doing the best, but she's hanging on. My daughter's still there. All my kids are there, you know. So we're just, we're not. I wasn't prepared to deal with their trauma when I got out, so we're learning to coexist right now. I love my dysfunctional family. I love them and we're working through some stuff. But before we say goodbye, say goodbye. Before we say goodbye, I do want to mention that we are really going to be I myself and I know, evelyn. We have some girls that were very dear to us in Tallahassee Gloria Palacios, who was sentenced to 40 years, rita Peek, tiffany Arnold.
Speaker 2:Starlet Kaiser.
Speaker 3:Starlet, kaiser Mary Bowman, mary Bowman these are some women that we're going to be really, really trying to find.
Speaker 2:Shiny shiny too, Shawnee Butler. Shawnee Butler, yes.
Speaker 3:Women. They've been there for a minute, rita, it has a life sentence.
Speaker 2:She's be out, huh, rita she's be out Renita.
Speaker 3:Yeah, renita, renita, but Rita.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're talking about Rita.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, it's Tiffanyiffany too, tiffany arnold I. I just want to mention them because, um, I just, I, I just can't forget about them. I can't, I can't. Every night when I go to bed I it haunts me. So I know I have to do. When it's when something bothers me that bad, I cannot just sit on it, I have to do something. Yeah's, when something bothers me that bad, I cannot just sit on it, I have to do something yeah, and let me let me say something about today.
Speaker 2:Yesterday, uh, mary Luz, she called me and she told me about the girls. She's from Colombia too, she have a long time to do too, and she asked me if we can help her. And I tell her, let me, let me try to to talking about with my, with my friends. Yeah, she's from colombia. There's a lot of people janine, jean t, jenny. Yeah, goodness, we have a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that yeah, sounds like you guys got work to do yeah well, the most important thing is be a grandmother right. That's what I said to evelyn when she boarded the plane home right now.
Speaker 3:Did you know that? Did you know that?
Speaker 1:I told her. I said she said thank you. I said no, you go home and be a, be a grandmother. That's the best thing you can do for your grandmother.
Speaker 3:Yeah, never forget these words yeah, yeah that's my grandbaby, my grand one of my grandbabies is is. She's at the house right now and my my phone's been blowing up since this podcast and I know she wants me there, so I'm gonna be heading straight home from here, all right?
Speaker 1:great, um, thank everybody straight here. Okay, all right, great, thank everybody and thank you. We'll. We'll do this again pretty soon, okay.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you guys. God bless everybody. Have a good day. Sorry, okay.