Justice Then, Justice Now
This podcast explores the American criminal justice system from all angles, including perspectives from: law enforcement, prosecution, inmates, fugitives and everything in between.
Justice Then, Justice Now
Ep 7: Herb Rutherford - Leadership, Law, and Legacy
Ever wondered what it takes to navigate the complex world of law enforcement and organized crime? Join us as we sit down with Herb Rutherford, a highly respected figure in the U.S. Marshal Service, whose career spans decades of impactful service. From his first memorable encounter with Chief Deputy Toby Roche during the notorious Licavoli trial in 1982 to his pivotal role in high-stakes organized crime trials, Herb's stories are not just gripping but also offer profound insights into the challenges and triumphs of being a Marshal.
Herb's journey is not just confined to his law enforcement career; it also encapsulates his early life in Washington, DC, his military service in Korea and Vietnam. Facing challenges head-on, from managing dangerous inmates to thwarting escape plans, Herb's resilience and dedication stand out. Learn about his remarkable career trajectory, including his significant appointments as the United States Marshal for Virginia and his rare distinction of being appointed by four presidents.
We also explore the unique initiatives led by Herb, such as the impactful youth programs and undercover operations aimed at tackling police corruption and mob activity. From the adrenaline-pumping moments of Operation Flagship to the poignant efforts of the Learning and Discipline (LAD) program at Smothers Elementary School, Herb's stories are a testament to his dedication and leadership. Reflect on the times when camaraderie was built over shared meals, touch football games, and the challenging yet rewarding environment of the U.S. Marshal Service. Join us for this inspirational episode that offers not just lessons in law enforcement but also in leadership, resilience, and community impact.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
Welcome everybody to the Justice Then, justice Now podcast. My name is Jeff Thomas, I'm here with Toby Roach and our guest is on with us right now, herb Rutherford. How are you doing, herb? I'm well, thank you. Thank you so much for being our first guest.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, Toby had been talking about this for quite a while and I'm honored that we are going to do this. Thank you so much, Awesome. So where and when did you first meet Toby? I met Toby. It would have been 19,. Would have been 85, Toby, Is that?
Speaker 3:the year. No, you met me in 82 in Cleveland, so that's where we met the first time 82, right, Okay, 82.
Speaker 2:In Cleveland. I was there for the Liccavoli trial, James White, yeah. Well, what happened was I ended up having a chief deputy that, for better reasons than not, he ended up going elsewhere. And you know, when you're getting a new chief deputy in, there's concern as to how are you going to blend with this guy. We didn't have many female chief devs at the time, but I was very concerned about who would be coming in, so Toby came in. We sat down in my office for about I think it was about an hour and a half two hours just talking to each other, Just talking to each other, getting to know each other. By the time we finished our introductions to each other and talking to each other, getting to know each other by the time we finished our introductions to each other and talking to each other at least in my mind I'm saying this is going to work out great.
Speaker 2:Toby is going to be an ideal chief deputy. So that's how we met. Well, we met in Cleveland at first, but this is when I first met him, coming back into my office in Washington DC.
Speaker 1:What were you doing in?
Speaker 2:Cleveland. I was the chief deputy United States Marshal in Cleveland. I ended up having to wear a wire in a case up there and a day or so later my director, william E Hall, called me and said Herb, we've got to get you out of Cleveland. So they sent me to Newark, new Jersey, as the chief deputy.
Speaker 1:So that's how that went down. So Newark is that an upgrade or has?
Speaker 2:that fallen off the cliff. It was a challenge, but I enjoyed it.
Speaker 3:You have any Newark stories, toby? No, no, he had very tough offices with a lot of trials with organized crime that he directed there. So it was very helpful with me to be the chief deputy in DC getting experience with some of the Iran-Contra trials we had we had. You know, dc is the fishbowl for the Marshal Service that's the best way to describe it and they watched to see like if something goes wrong in US District Court and with the Court of Appeals.
Speaker 2:Getting back to Toby and I getting together, I guess when he came into the office, as I said, we sat down and talked for a couple hours and at the end of that discussion I think both of us had formed the opinion that this was going to be an ideal match, an ideal situation. So Toby moved in shortly thereafter, moved into the area. I met his wife, aida at the time and it was just a very positive experience the whole time. The whole time he and I were together.
Speaker 1:I have a similar type first meeting with Toby under some different circumstances, at a cage fight.
Speaker 2:Wasn't at a bar, was he?
Speaker 1:No, shortly thereafter. I'm sure that's where he does all his best work. That's what I've heard anyway.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he has a rum collection behind him. You can see that in the view, Jeff.
Speaker 1:Herb. Can I take you all the way back? Where did you grow up? What was your childhood like?
Speaker 2:I grew up in Washington DC Pretty tough area at the time, but I did well there and ended up going to well, grew up in Washington DC, went into the military at 19 years old. I spent about 22 months in Korea and I was told that I had orders I was going to be going to Fort Polk, louisiana. I went to my superiors and mentioned to them that I really didn't want to go to Fort Polk. What were my options? And they said, well, herb, you can go to Vietnam. And I said, well, fine, I'll go to Vietnam. So I ended up going to Vietnam. Now, my assignment that I had in Vietnam was a unique assignment. I guess we all remember hearing about the my Lai Massacre of 1969, I guess it was. So they ended up.
Speaker 2:I ended up flying into Vietnam, met with my boss, who was an African-American gentleman. He was a civilian close. He was driving a civilian sheep. His name was Oren Blackman and we sat down and talked for quite a while and I just realized that it was going to be a good assignment. Now he was about 20 years older than I was, maybe 25 years older than I was, but we hit it off well. Now, he never went to the field. That was my job. I was in the field and the job as an advisor to the Vietnamese National Speed Force had me in the field and it was good. I mean at his age, as I said, he was about 20, 25 years older than I was it was better. I was more suited to be in the field than he was, so he worked out very well. Well, I was kind of on the edge a lot as a young man. I guess my parents and a lot of people at that time were getting strung out on heroin and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I was never going to do that. When I first came back from Vietnam, many of the young men that I'd grown up with were heroin addicts. I came, and the first day I got back from Vietnam I saw a guy that I had been in high school with and he said Herb, do you want?
Speaker 2:to try some of this. I said, no, I can. A guy that saw a guy that I had been in high school with and he said, herb, you want to try some of this and pulled out some heroin. And I said, no, I can't go that way. So I mean, he's dead now, just as most of the young men that I grew up with are dead now. So I've been blessed. I've been truly blessed. What else can I tell you about my early days? What so? What branch were you in? What else can I tell you about my early days? What branch were you in? Army?
Speaker 2:Actually, I was trained as an MP in Korea, but when I went to Vietnam, they told me that I was going to be advising a unit of the Vietnamese National Police Field Force. Now, this was following the my Lai Massacre of 19, I guess 1969, 70, in that area. So that was my job, but I had to. I was an advisor with the Vietnamese National Police Field Force. They said they could never have. In fact, their words were we can never have Americans killing Vietnamese civilians. So you were going to, they said, told me that I would be assigned to a Vietnamese unit of the National Police Field Force as an advisor, both to get them equipment and to just get them the support they needed when they were in the field. As I said, they just always reinforced that we can never have American soldiers killing Vietnamese civilians. So that was the nature of the job I had when I was there.
Speaker 1:So when you get out of the Army, how long were you there? Did you do? A couple of years, a couple tours out there.
Speaker 2:I just did a total of three years. And when I came home I started applying for jobs. I applied for a position with the Secret Service and I don't know what happened there. But they ended up telling me that they couldn't access my military health records. And I told them. I said I don't know where they would be. I never saw them. In Vietnam could have been blown up, but I never saw them. So they ended up telling me well, perhaps you're gonna. As I said, I applied for a job with the Secret Service and they couldn't find my health records. So I was kind of undesirable to them. So I went and applied for a position with the United States Marshal Service and they said sure, we'd love to have you. So I went to work for the United States Marshal Service and was actually with them from 1971 to to what? 2088, I guess.
Speaker 1:So a long time when you were in the Army. Were these positions that you thought maybe I could do this afterwards, or was it just the right place at the right time?
Speaker 2:I thought about that, trying to do it or applying to do it afterwards, but that ended up not working that way. I mean, I guess about a year after I got there my time was up, so I could have stayed longer if I wanted to, but I didn't. I just got out and came home and started applying for positions in various law enforcement agencies.
Speaker 1:So you were straight to the marshals, not like Toby was a cop and then kind of moved to the marshals.
Speaker 3:He knows this story. We have a mutual friend named Paul Desmond, and Herb was in the special operations group, which is a 99-person unit, practical unit yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're paramilitary. And I went into the federal courthouse looking for jobs because I was on midnights and I ran into a guy by the name of Paul Desmond and I came in and he was the best recruiter I've ever seen. He came in, he had me all pumped up. I was like 22 years old, 23. And he had me. So you know that's how I got started. Pretty much I went in the basement of the federal building and that's always, always where the marshals are right Herb, the first floor or the basement. When you even the courthouse in DC, it's the marshals right on the first floor before you get to any courtrooms.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. But, like I said, when Toby first got there, I was elated to have had him Chief Deputy in an office is a very important position, as you can imagine, and just having somebody that we immediately knew that we could work well together. So that was a great situation and I guess the period of the years that we were together it was great. He was a great friend and a talented manager and leader, so it was great.
Speaker 3:We also liked to sing music, you know, because it was very unique. Her was 37 years old and I was 29. And I think you know the average age of the marshal and the chief deputy was probably in the 50s. So we balanced out at like age 32, which today wouldn't happen. I'm pretty sure they won't have that happen again not from a bad experience, but I'm saying just the unique time that we were in in the 80s.
Speaker 1:So I know just from my conversations with Toby a little bit about what the Marshalls do. What was your experience like when you first joined? Did you have any expectations? Did you have any periods where you're like, whoa, what am I doing here? What was that like?
Speaker 2:No, I think it met my expectations. Of course, everybody coming in at the rank I was at the time you're going to end up working in the cell block and nothing glamorous. So that's what I did initially going in. Eventually I kind of moved up when they realized that I had skills that would enable me to maybe do other than cell block work, do other than cell block work. So that's how that went down. I mean, you had cell block work, evictions, some fugitive work, but not a whole lot. The older guys wanted to do the fugitive work and were involved in that kind of thing. As for me, at the time I was still considered a rookie and was not exposed to that when I first got in.
Speaker 3:I just want to add to that that there are no prima donnas in the Marshal Service. You start out transporting dangerous prisoners, working the cell block and that you've got to be on your toes. You know, and it kind of tests to see how you're going to react. You know, and it kind of tests to see how you're going to react Like we knew with all the deputies that we had each other's back that if something went bad we went right to work on that situation and dealt with it and I think that's kind of unique for the Marshal Service. I've been with a couple agencies but I know the camaraderie level agencies. But I know the camaraderie level. When I was an entry deputy myself, you went in there and you had altercations in the cell block and if you didn't like that you found out pretty fast this wasn't a calling for you, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what are you doing in there, Like are you taking them to and from court? Or like what is your assignment in the cell block?
Speaker 2:Well, you're searching them when they first come in, hopefully to ensure that they don't have not sneaking anything in anything like weapons, knives, guns, anything like that and then you escort them to court. That's what you're doing with the prisoners and you're also transporting them to and from the jail. Now, we had some I mean I had some pretty interesting experiences at the time. I had my wife. At the time she was at Georgetown University Medical School and she called me one day and there was another young lady that was at Georgetown Medical School with her and she said that her Donna has told me that Rafe Edmonds is planning to escape from DC jail. I said, okay, we'll get on that.
Speaker 2:Anyway, we ended up going to get him, putting him in a helicopter and taking him down to Quantico Brig, marine Brig, down the road, about 30 miles down the road. But we were just trying to take advantage of any insights or anybody that could give us information that might make what we're trying to accomplish more secure. So anyway, that's how that happened. Additionally, I ended up in fact Toby mentioned it I ended up going to SOG school, special Operations Group School. It was a tactical unit, it was challenging. I think about 50 of us started in the program and probably about 17 of us finished. So it's rigorous and a lot of folks don't make it through, so it was good.
Speaker 1:What's that school preparing you for? Is that more like going after the fugitives and stuff like that?
Speaker 2:Well, that because it's a tactical training.
Speaker 2:So I mean there's a lot of weaponry driving, um just it's, it's just everything you might run into in a hostile situation within the marshal service. So, um, that's, that's basically what it was actually Actually what ended up happening. After I finished that, I ended up getting, or being, promoted to. Well, let me back up, tell you a little bit more. They came out with a new position. They asked me if I wanted to go to SOG, and I did, completed that training and then they said well, we would like for you to consider applying for the position as an inspector in the Judicial Security Division.
Speaker 2:So I did that, took that position as an inspector and did that for a while. Subsequently, I got a call from my director His name was William E Hall, a great man at the time, and he said Herb, I need you out of this position. I need you in Cleveland, ohio, or Newark, new Jersey. He said where do you want to go? I said I'll go wherever you want to send me. So I ended up going to Newark, new Jersey, and rather, we ended up going to Cleveland.
Speaker 2:Ohio. I was in Cleveland for probably three or four months and ended up being having to wear a wire in a case that was dealing with the Cleveland Police Department and some thugs there, so I ended up having to wear that wire. The director at the time, william E Hall. He called me and says Herb, I got to get you out of Cleveland. He said where do you want to go? I said I can go wherever you want to send me. So that's how I ended up going to Newark, new Jersey.
Speaker 2:Subsequently I got a call from Bill Hall after I had been in Newark New Jersey for probably about eight or nine months and he said Herb, senator John Warner would like to talk to you, john Warner of Virginia. And I said what's up? And he said he wants to discuss with you being the United States Marshal for being appointed, being the United States Marshal being appointed as the United States Marshal for Virginia. He says there's never been an African-American United States Marshal in the state of Virginia. So I went and met with Senator John Warner and we had a nice conversation. He ended up saying you know Herb well. We talked about a lot of things, but he ended up saying Herb, I think you will be an ideal person to be the United States Marshal for Virginia.
Speaker 2:So I ended up being transferred out of Newark, new Jersey, to Richmond, Virginia, spent probably close to a year there and again I get a call from William E Hall, the director, and he says Herb, I need you to talk with Senator John Warner. He wants to interview you with regard to being the United States Marshal for Virginia. So Senator John Warner said I was a chief deputy at the time. He said, chief Rutherford, this can be a dirty business. He said especially the politics can be a dirty business. He said if you will handle the US marshalling, I'll handle the politics and we'll make this thing work very well. And we did. I mean, I really admired and had a lot of respect for Senator John Warner. Yeah, he was a good man. Unfortunately, he's passed away now.
Speaker 3:No, I just wanted to add that, you know, in Pete Throne's book Behind Blue Eyes, herb wrote the foreword and he's very modest, he always was. I mean, you know, he's appointed by four different presidents Republicans and Democrats and that's really unusual, because those positions are usually you serve at the whim of the president and then when power changes you're gone. But he had such a reputation, you know, in doing that. As far as fairness and that's the one thing that I'll always remember Herb R, her brother, for is his fairness with everybody I mean, we both had people that we loved and people we didn't like, but as long as they did the job, we didn't care, you know. And our makeup was very unique in DC, with African-Americans, caucasians, hispanics. It was a, it was a melting pot of diversity and we didn't see it that way.
Speaker 2:Excuse me, toby, excuse me, toby, but DC had the largest contingent of African-Americans deputies and admin in the country, so it was a. It was a unique experience being there and I enjoyed it. I thoroughly enjoyed it. So, as I said, I was in DC, rather, I was the marshal in DC for a number of years and then ended up being promoted to the marshal's position rather the marshal position in Virginia. Subsequently I was asked to come back to Washington DC to be the United States Marshal. I took that position and spent about I guess about 15 years there as the United States Marshal in Washington DC. It was a challenging job but I enjoyed it. I was at home.
Speaker 2:I remember when I first was appointed to the United States motion position in Virginia, my father he came down to the swearing in in Richmond, virginia. A lot of the Virginia congressmen, senators, that kind of thing were at the swearing in and I remember my father saying son, I'm really proud of you, I'm happy for you, but it sure would have been nice had you been able to get the job as the United States Marshal for Washington DC. I said, yeah, dad, it certainly would have been Well. Within a year or so I was the United States Marshal in Washington DC. Within a year or so I was the United States Marshal in Washington DC. But I guess you know, I knew the guys, I knew the city and I guess, especially having a chief deputy like Toby there who was just real savvy and got along with everybody, it was an ideal, it was a match made in heaven, let me put it that way. I don't know that it's happening that way in the martial service now any longer. Toby, what do you think?
Speaker 3:I think that it's changed a lot. Like I said, there were very busy times in the 80s and you know, one of the highlights that we had working together was Operation Flagship, which had to do with arresting all that heard talk about it. But he said, go, set this up, we'll work together. And then when we got so many people responding to the Washington Redskins game, we brought it up to headquarters. But this whole thing was conceived and it was conceived not as a master plan of headquarters, it was having dinner at my townhome with her. Myself and my ex-wife, aida perez, had made cuban food and herb loves cuban food and sangria. So I, when I had the invitation, it was like what well, I'm going to tell another story too. Too, that you remember. We would go to Arlington, virginia, across the bridge, and there was one Cuban restaurant, ok, and we went for the restaurant and we had one of our, our terrific deputies, gary Noble, had a top 15 fugitive who Herb knew from the neighborhood and cornered at Howard University and we said let's go.
Speaker 3:We put our food down on the campus and drew down on this guy Now this is kind of unusual because this is what deputies do and we were called up to headquarters and we were asked you guys are supposed to be the administrators, you're the executives of the office, what the hell? And Herb had the best answer. He said Mr Director, I was on my lunch hour. Now, if I said it I would have got my ass out in the hallway and yelled at, but it was Herb Rutherford.
Speaker 2:Out of coverage. What?
Speaker 3:I know you had me.
Speaker 2:But that was I would have covered you.
Speaker 3:I know that, I know that for sure. But very modest, you know, like that'll never happen again Four presidents in a row like that. You know most of it is the marshal, because most deputies and agents go through their whole career as line people and there's nothing wrong with that. I did that myself and and that, but it's a very unique situation, you know, and just just the way that he dealt with the people in the courthouse, just the way that he dealt with the people in the courthouse. There was a couple occasions that I would piss off the judges, you know, just because of being a brash 29-year-old, and he would go upstairs and say let me clean this up for you. But all in all, it was really really, really a good time and a great boss that I had.
Speaker 2:And we've been friends ever since. I mean, it's been a closeness to us ever since, both in the country, out of the country, different assignments, different places. So he's like my brother yes, better than some of my brothers.
Speaker 3:I used to joke around I say, when we were there, it's like Rutherford and Roach, it's like a law firm. You know, you could just put a plaque up outside the courthouse, because that's how it sounded.
Speaker 3:And, believe me, there was a lot of pressure. Herb, you know that we had how many judges were in that building district court and court of appeals that they all had their own little things that they wanted, you know, and you had to balance that. You had to balance that out. But when we got into flagship it was challenging. We had a fantastic time because I just remember saying, you know, we had a great man, howard Safer, who passed away. He was the chief of the New York City Police Department, he was the commissioner and he rose up and he was a role model, you know, for everybody. But at that point he had full confidence in us doing this and allowing it to happen. So, you know, some people thought we were crazy. They said, oh, if you get 200 people up there and they recognize each other. But you got to remember something there was no internet, there was no cell phones, there was no social media like today. Now, would it work? Today? Absolutely not. People would get hurt and this and that, but we had the whole operation spelled out.
Speaker 1:So it wouldn't even be considered. Today They'd say get out of here, it's a logistics nightmare 100% right, herb.
Speaker 3:They wouldn't do that today.
Speaker 2:Yes, I don't. The DC offices, I mean. I'm sure they are very professional and doing a fine job, but it was a lot different back then, a lot different.
Speaker 1:I'll go back to what you were saying before. You know you face some challenges, unique challenges and stuff. What was the most challenging part of that job?
Speaker 2:Dealing with judges was challenging, but also I mean, you know, dc can be a tough place to work. There were a lot of prisoners, and all the prisoners thought they were bad. We didn't back down from anybody. But so, I mean, as time went on, they developed a respect for us. They knew we were fair, we weren't going to abuse anybody, but we weren't going to take any crap either. So that worked fine. In fact, toby used to do some boxing too, didn't he?
Speaker 3:Well, I did wrestling. You used to do some boxing too, didn't you? Well, I did wrestling.
Speaker 3:They had a guy we had a deputy, floyd Johnson who was. He was huge and he went to the World Police Olympics and I said he says I don't got anybody to train with. I said I'll train with you and I remember coming down from like two hours of training with him and I had cuts on my face. I had everything else and I'm dressed in a suit, you understand, bruised up and walking around Everybody's, like what happened to you? I'd go. It was Floyd, it was him, it wasn't a bandit or anything like that. It was that.
Speaker 1:So what kind of situations would you have to deal with, judges? What would make it a difficult situation versus a seamless situation?
Speaker 3:I'll let you answer now.
Speaker 2:Judges. Many of them feel that they're judges and there's, you know, whatever they say goes. So the majority of the judges in the federal court there in Washington DC were good, were great. They respected us and what we were trying to do and they were going to be in our corner if anything happened. And I guess I remember also years ago there was another situation that took place and this was at the Superior Court in Washington DC. The US Marshal's Office at that time had the responsibilities for the Superior Court, which is the city court, as well as the federal court, which is the district court.
Speaker 2:So we worked hard to ensure the security of the judiciary and the courts themselves, and it could get pretty rough over there sometime, and the courts themselves, and it could get pretty rough over there sometimes, but all is well. I like to think that we set the stage for a very professional office and an office that would do whatever it took to get the job done. That's the way we handled it. That's the way we ended up doing it. We didn't turn down any assignments or anything. It could get a little dangerous sometime, but that goes with the territory.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we actually had touch football games with Superior Court and District Court and they were fun, because you know, when guys play touch football it turns out not to be touch football. But we got the judges that would go to. The judges would go to the games, the federal judges, I mean. And what he was referring to with the boxing was it wasn't me we had a young deputy who went to the world uh uh, police olympics and he fought and he won the championship. So so, as you know, john Sirica, who was the Watergate judge, he was a boxer in the army and I get a phone call you know, can you send this guy up? And Sirica said it was Mike, you know, and he goes like this and he goes, let me see what you got. And I looked at him and I said do not hit this man. This is God, do not hit him.
Speaker 3:And the other one that he bailed me out on was we do evictions in DC. You'd go and after somebody. It was kind of a sad thing, but you had to place the evictee's property on the sidewalk in front of you, okay, or across the street. I'm right, I think I'm right. So we put that in a couple times. Well, this guy calls in and one of the supervisors is on the phone and he, he says yep, okay, all right, listen, I know a little bit about the law myself. Okay, mr burger, and please, if you don't, if you have a problem, talk to my chief deputy, tobias roach.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I, I went off and I said I said no, you did the right thing, you moved the stuff across the street. Well, herb Herb comes running back. He says I just got a call from the attorney general, the house, that you placed the evictee stuff in front of it's Chief Justice, warren Burger. And, needless to say, I saw my transfer in front of my eyes and I said let's just move it down a couple things, a couple houses down where we do this. But yeah, so the big joke was that when the guy he's since deceased retired, we got him a trophy and it says with a justice thing on it, with a gavel. It said listen, mr Berger, I know a little bit about the law myself. Gavel. It said listen, mr berger, I know a little bit about the law myself.
Speaker 2:So those were some of the another thing too. Yeah, another thing that uh happened was, uh, I guess that years ago, before the united states marshals office in washington dc handled it, was a separate office, separate for the Superior Court and one for the District Court. Well, one day I was assigned to the Superior Court. A deputy had a.
Speaker 2:When you're dealing with prisoners, the policy was you don't have a gun around prisoners. Well, this deputy had obviously forgotten to take his gun off or whatever. But one of the prisoners stood up in the chair in the courtroom and the deputy went over to him and bent over, put his hand on his shoulder to force him to sit down. But when he went bent over, his coat suit coat kind of slid back and the prisoner saw the deputy's gun. He reached in the holster and pulled the gun out. So you had Gary Noble and Carlisle Burch. They're fighting him. They got a gun up in the air, they're trying to disarm him and he ended up dying in the struggle. So I mean, now the issue is you were taught when you're that close to prisoners you shouldn't have a gun on you where they could gain access to it.
Speaker 2:So anyway that went down the way that it shouldn't have gone down, but the prisoner died. They said the prisoner himself. He died of a torn heart. They said well, when you look at Gary Noble and Carlisle Birch, both of them weighed well over 250 pounds. So when they disarmed him in the struggle, he passed away. When they disarmed him in the struggle, he passed away. And you know, as is normally the case, the Metropolitan Police are going to have to do a homicide investigation and all that. But it was ruled that. You know they took the actions they had to take. Unfortunately he died, but we had our share of experiences there. I was blessed to have been in such a great office as the District of Columbia. I just had some great experiences.
Speaker 3:Toby was one of those great experiences we had a. It was a different time, like you know, I'm not going to say we were like cowboys, because we weren't, but at the same time we gave a lot of attitude. A lot of attitude I meant not attitude, but you know the ability to go out and do your job and do things and you know we had some hairy incidents with deputies there. You know we beefed up the warrant squad, which was a good thing, because DC in the 80s was the murder capital of the United States. It was. It was just a very violent crack cocaine was hitting the streets and different areas of the district and that. So we went out and we had great deputies that worked with us and they made a lot of apprehensions, to begin in the middle 80s, right when that was starting out. So it was good we had headquarters looking at us every day, because back then the local section of the Washington Post was read by everybody, not like today with your news is on your phone and you've got the major networks. I mean you had things in their infancy CNN stuff like that, so you didn't have it, so they would get their news there and they all liked to pay attention to DC. But no, his background was terrific. You know, I was never in the military. You know I was kind of different. I would come from California and that Kind of different, I would come from California and that, and you know, it just was a really really good combination.
Speaker 3:And people noticed it, I think Herb all the deputies, because they had had histories before where the marshal didn't get along with the chief or the chief didn't get along with the marshal, and that hurts morale. You know, that's the whole thing. That's how law enforcement is successful. It's all about the morale of the people that you're working with and that. So when we did flagship, the morale was through the roof that we did it and we kept it a big secret, which you know. You say, how can you keep a secret in Washington? Well, back then you didn't have the social media. You had tough reporters that sniffed around the courthouse but we kept that secret. When we briefed the deputies involved and they brought in the SOG team, special Operations Group, the Metropolitan Police, their SWAT team and everybody, nobody had a clue, right Hurt, nobody knew what was going on. They were in shock. They were in shock.
Speaker 1:Because I saw the documentary, the 30 for 30 documentary, and so there was like cameras. You guys were shooting that yourselves. Where was that footage from?
Speaker 2:Go ahead. We had some media. The media was going to be there. They wanted to take pictures of it and that not only well, it covered us, because if the camera's there there's less likely to be any abuses. And you know, we weren't there to kill anybody or unnecessarily hurt anybody. But having the media there was a good thing a very good thing.
Speaker 1:So they kind of knew, but they had the good sense of not spoiling it.
Speaker 3:No, there was only certain media that they broke the story to and that was not at our level, that was at headquarters and they went through a vetting process with that and they went through a vetting process with that. So we didn't have like, I mean, you can't keep a secret in Washington. I mean, you know, no matter what era it's been, you know it's always politics and that, and we stayed away from that. We stayed away from politics and this and that, you know, and just did our jobs. You know.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's a good question, jeff, we very few people know about it and the media was. They covered it from from about the second weekend or third week when we we got a tremendous response and we realized that we didn't have the personnel to cover this, because when you're taking groups of 20 people up to a room and arresting 150 in a period of an hour and a half, two hours, it's got to run very quickly and all that. So you know, it was the largest one-day actually three-hour roundup, I think, in the history of law enforcement that we did, and you know it was very crazy, you know. But yeah, anyway, it worked. So I'm glad.
Speaker 2:Actually, it worked surprisingly well. I mean, it was great. But we ended up getting calls from other law enforcement agencies around the world Wanted to know how did you all do this? How can we do it? So you know, it was a lot of interest from, as I said, a lot of law enforcement agencies everywhere. So and we shared, we had nothing to hide. We shared it with them, so it was a good thing to do.
Speaker 2:Another thing that we did in the office and Toby would remember this is my sister was a teacher there at a place called Smothers Elementary School in Washington DC, and she called me one day when she got home and said she said I need some help. I said what's that? She said so many of the young boys, and it was an elementary school. She said so many of these young boys in this elementary school don't have fathers at home. Is there something you all can do to present a male role model for them that will help them? I said, well, yeah, let me talk to my people. I went and talked to one of my people. He was a black belt karate instructor. His name was I'm drawing a blank, but who am I talking about? Toby, pj Adkins, pj Adkins. Yeah, pj Adkins.
Speaker 2:So I went and talked to PJ. I said PJ, we need to start a program over at Smothers and River Terrace Elementary Schools for these kids over there. He said let me give some thought, marshall, I'll get back to you. So he got back to me in a few days and said I think we can create a problem and we're going to call it LAD. I said what will LAD stand for? He said it will stand for learning and discipline. So we set that program up. We would go over to the school. Some of the deputies would go over to the school every week, work with the young boys, and sometimes they would take them to theaters or ball games or whatever. We had people from another group in Washington DC called Black Scuba Divers. So they came over and did a presentation Black schools in Washington DC. But we just tried to do everything we could.
Speaker 2:Subsequently, within probably about six months, I get a call from my sister again and she says there's something else I'm going to ask you to do. I said what's that? She says the girls in the school said they want their program too. They want a program. And she said we think you can name it LAS as opposed to LA. So we started another program just to address the needs of the young girls there. So I don't think any of that is still going on, but it was very worthwhile.
Speaker 2:As my sister said, many of the young men there didn't have fathers at home, so setting that up was it helped us as well as helping the kids and the teachers. Everybody benefited from it. I had hoped that they would continue it when I left. I hope that they would continue it when I left, but I don't think that it was not continued. It takes some. Maybe you know for me, as I said when my sister called me, we both grew up in DC. She was a teacher, but I felt I had a vested interest in trying to help these young men and young girls interest in trying to help these young men and young girls. But if you don't have people that are from there, it's less likely that they're going to take the efforts to create these programs and hang in there with them and make them work. We actually even had the Attorney General come over at the time Toby, what was her name?
Speaker 3:Which one I was there. I was there when Mies was there and William French Smith. It would have been after I left to go to customs.
Speaker 2:This would have been a female, female attorney general. Yeah, I'm drawing a blank.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But, but we, we, we did a lot of things I mean, it's mean with those kids. It was always a Christmas dinner that we would put on for them and just anything we could do to try to keep them out of trouble and give them a reason to want to excel, and it worked quite well. I don't think it's still working now. I don't think it's still going there. I don't think it's still going there. In fact, when I did end up leaving DC, I challenged the person who replaced me not to let it go by the wayside. But for whatever reason, they didn't feel that it was worth their time.
Speaker 1:Hey, herb, I'm super interested in what you were talking about in Cleveland when you had to go undercover and wear a wire with the police. Did that give you a lot of anxiety, or were you pretty focused on what you were doing? How did that go?
Speaker 2:I was focused on what I was doing. I just felt it was something that I needed to do and what it was. We went on a. We were after a fugitive. We Mark Farmer, who was a deputy at the time, actually went on to be an assistant director. I think at some point.
Speaker 3:A fifth degree black belt too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he ran toward the door and did a flying sidekick to knock the door down, kick the door in, and we went in, arrested a lot of the people that had drugs there and stolen merchandise and all. And I remember I went back outside standing outside and I saw the police with TVs and a whole bunch of stuff they just collected and I asked them I said what is this? They said oh, it's all stolen merchandise. I said okay, well, then the next day some of them came to me. Two of them came to me and said had an envelope full of money and said this is yours. I said I don't want it. But then I ended up calling my boss, who called the FBI head at the time, and the next day they said well, marshal Rutherford, would you be willing to wear a wire? I said sure, I'll wear a wire. So I wore that wire on that case and then about two days later, as I said, my director called me and said Herb, we need to get you out of Cleveland.
Speaker 3:If I could comment on it a little bit, that was a tough time in Cleveland. They actually made a movie called Kill the Irishman and in that movie there's a guy, Danny Boy Green, and he was going around and he was bombing. They would bomb the cars Instead of killing you, they'd blow up the cars. So we had a major mob trial. And that's when I met Herb for the first time in 82. I was detailed out to Cleveland and we were protecting the witnesses for the government against the organized crime there, for the government against the organized crime there. So this ties into the same error that he ran into. This bribery. Bring back memories, Herb, but that's how I—huh Bring back memories of Cleveland. Huh, those guys, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it was a good—I had great experiences in the Mars martial service. Some of it was challenging. I mean, after having did what I did in the military, it was a good thing for me. I was blessed. I was truly blessed.
Speaker 3:He's good on arrest too because, like when we went out and we arrested the top 15 on our lunch hour, we went and I said, herb, I don't know DC, I know the back roads, but I can drive too fast, too furious today, so we ended up getting there with the traffic in eight minutes. It was amazing, turn here, turn here, and I'm like okay and that, but no, and that's what you look at. You look at the street mentality, even at higher management. We've both worked with managers that you wouldn't go through a door with, I mean. But the Marshal Service didn't have very many of them where they got bad reputations. It was all about your reputation and that, and that was very clear with the prisoners. They didn't mess with you because they knew and not that they were going to get their ass kicked, which occasionally you had to do, and not that they were going to get their ass kicked, which occasionally you had to do. But if you showed the respect, then they showed it to you. You had a professional relationship with them and it was very, very evident in DC. That's how it operated, because it was a high volume of prisoners between Superior court, which is like their city court, and the federal court and then we had we had orders that that they had too many prisoners and we had remember we had to take them to lorton and we had to go to petersburg because the jails were really overcrowded.
Speaker 3:This was, this was the 80s, this was washington d. I was there. We could sit here and talk about the Iran-Contra, you know, which we dealt with. That was really high profile, probably the, you know, very, very divisive. You know, like the water, there's stages in our history, especially in DC. They had Watergate, iran-contra and and who knows what the future is going to be. There's always been the political trials but you had to maintain your professionalism, no matter how you felt about that person going in, and it came from the chief judge and her that anybody that was going to grand jury care who it was. If you were an administrative secretary for the president or whatever, you went in through the main entrance, you know whether you had Secret Service protection or FBI protection and we dealt with that, you know. And we also had high threats that we had on people. Herb put in the first Delta barriers that we had. They didn't have Delta barriers in the courthouses but we had that and we had put in bulletproof windows, you know. So we had the Delta barriers.
Speaker 2:And a secure courtroom.
Speaker 3:Yes, all that was brand new to the Marshal Service. We were the test office for that. I won't mention the physical fitness facility that we built, because that was state-of-the-art at the time and you know, thank God we had the backing of the judges to do that well I had caught.
Speaker 2:What happened was I had called uh my director his name was stan morris at the time and told him that I would like to uh put in a fitness facility, and he said you know, herbert, you've got uh the money in your budget, you can go ahead and do it. Well, we ended up putting in, you know, mirosana, whirlpool, all the different weights and everything, so it worked out fine.
Speaker 3:I wasn't going to say it.
Speaker 2:But we named it after a man named Norman Sheriff. Now Norman Sheriff was a deputy United States marshal who was killed in Washington DC. He was on an assignment and was shot and killed. But you just try to, as a manager in these places, you try to leave the place better than you found it or enhance it based on what you're able to accomplish while you're there, and Toby and I were blessed to have been able to do a lot there and I certainly think, and I'm sure Toby would agree leave it better than what we found it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, most definitely, most definitely. It was a unique situation.
Speaker 1:Herb. Before we let you go, before our time is up, I'd love to know, based on your career and your experience as a marshal, like we're sitting here 2024, right, we're recording this in May of 2024 what is? Like the thing that concerns you the most about where things are in the world right now, and what is one thing that gives you the most hope.
Speaker 2:What concerns me the most. Well, I think that we're still finding or it's obvious, you see so many occasions where police are abusing prisoners, and I think that's we can't maintain as law enforcement officers. We can't maintain our integrity if we are going to carry out some of the heinous actions that some law enforcement administrators, chiefs or what have you are allowing to take place within their particular departments. So I think that's what we all have to get away from. I mean, we have to, but it comes down to management. All of us have been in management. That's what it comes down to just being a manager that's not going to tolerate certain activities.
Speaker 3:And what do you?
Speaker 2:think.
Speaker 3:Toby, I agree with you. I come from. One of the purposes of this podcast is that we're doing with the series is it's going to have everybody on the criminal justice spectrum, and I mean we're going to have deputies, we're going to have police officers, special agents, prosecutors, defense lawyers, inmates released, people given second chances that were lifers with you know, compassionate release, innovative programs and this and that, and some of the people we have lined up, you know, I think, are going to clearly show this to the public, that it's a wide spectrum and one of the things everybody criticizes criminal justice, but they don't talk about how to fix it. You notice, you watch the TV, you watch CNN, fox News, whatever you watch, and they're always criticizing but there's no remedies to any of this. It's communication.
Speaker 2:Fixing it can come as an afterthought and you have to kind of be ahead of the ball.
Speaker 3:Preventing Absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know that was. I think it was a pretty great way to end. Yeah, yeah, great way to end Anything you'd like to mention or shout out, or you know what's going on with you over there.
Speaker 2:Well, I'd like to certainly mention again Senator John Warner of Virginia, who appointed me, or who nominated me, to be the first African-American United States Marshal in the state of Virginia, and he was a great man, a good man, and I'm just honored to have been able to to know him and to serve in that position.
Speaker 3:Now what? What president did you serve under? Let let everybody know. Okay, nixon, I don't think we'd be talking today.
Speaker 2:Did you serve under? Let everybody know, okay, ronald Reagan twice.
Speaker 3:Nixon, I don't think we'd be talking today.
Speaker 2:No, no, ronald Reagan twice. And then there was Bush Sr and then Clinton, bill Clinton. And after that, after I was appointed by Clinton, everybody predicted my demise because they were saying, herb, you know, you were appointed by these Republicans, you're not going to get it again. And I got appointed again. So I was appointed by Clinton, everybody predicted my demise because they were saying, herb, you know, you were appointed by these Republicans, you're not going to get it again. And I got appointed again. So I was blessed, of course, when you got great people working for you, great leadership on your team. It doesn't make sense to make a lot of changes because you're not going to get any better. It's unlikely you're going to get any better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's a good note. Thank you so much herb for your time, brother.
Speaker 2:See you appreciate it for your time. Thank you for, uh, your interest.
Speaker 1:Okay, pleasure to have you too, have a great one pleasure is ours thank you.