Justice Then, Justice Now
This podcast explores the American criminal justice system from all angles, including perspectives from: law enforcement, prosecution, inmates, fugitives and everything in between.
Justice Then, Justice Now
Ep 4: John Murray - From Surveillance Innovation to the NHL
Join us for an unforgettable ride through the career of John Murray, a retired NYPD officer and US Customs agent, whose captivating tales from the frontline of law enforcement will leave you informed and entertained. From patrolling Manhattan's Chelsea district to navigating the intricate world of illegal gambling at the Aqueduct racetrack, John's journey is filled with unexpected twists, high-stakes operations, and heart-pounding moments. Hear firsthand how he used wiretaps to intercept mob-controlled bets and the clever tactics that kept his team one step ahead of criminal masterminds.
In an enthralling segment, John recounts his fascinating encounters with organized crime figures, including the high-profile arrest and trial of the notorious Frank Costello. You'll get a behind-the-scenes look at undercover operations that involve everything from crawling through sand to install bugs in motel rooms near Niagara Falls to tracking drug-laden sailboats with incredible precision. John's stories are not just about the adrenaline-pumping action but also about the camaraderie and challenges that come with a career in law enforcement.
But John's career isn't limited to catching mobsters and drug dealers. His diverse experiences also include ensuring the safety of NHL referees and players, exposing him to the complex world of sports gambling scandals. From busting a corrupt National Guard sergeant to working undercover in Grand Cayman, John's insights provide a comprehensive look into the multifaceted nature of crime and justice. Tune in to discover how these experiences have shaped his perspective on law enforcement and the ever-evolving landscape of crime.
Produced by: Citrustream, LLC
Good morning. This is Tobias Roach with Jeff Thomas. This is Justice Then, justice Now, podcast. Today we have the pleasure of having John Murray here on the podcast. Full disclosure.
Speaker 1:I've known John since 1989. I've known John since 1989. We worked together at Customs and we had the wonderful pleasure of working together 30 years later for the National Hockey League. He's a senior representative and I was the junior representative in the NHL at the games in Sunrise and we were able to go to the Stanley Cup, which was a real thrill for me and thanks to John, I'll always be grateful for that to do that.
Speaker 1:He's going to talk about that job that he had for 30 years, but the main focus today is going to be on his career. John is retired from the New York City Police Department, he's retired from the US Custom and now he's spoiling his dog at home on a daily basis, and that the subjects we're going to talk about are a lot of things. He's going to be back for other sessions one on gambling, which he's very knowledgeable on, and we have another individual who actually went to jail and was indicted on gambling, so it should be very interesting to the viewers. The persons that John has encountered are some unique individuals. You'll hear about the cases groundbreaking cases and investigations that occurred in his tenure with the New York City Police Department and with the US Customs Service. John, it's great to see you.
Speaker 2:Good to be here and good to see you guys. Nice to meet you, jeff, you too Likewise. Nice to meet you, jeff, you too Likewise.
Speaker 1:I wanted to. I wonder if you could tell us your background for the benefit of viewers where you grew up, what got you into police work?
Speaker 2:That's usually the most popular question. Well, I grew up in the South Bronx, right by the Triborough Bridge, and I always wanted to be in the police department. There was no other goals I had when I graduated high school. We just waited until my age was 21, and then I entered the police department and that's where I wanted to go from day one and, believe me, I loved it and I wish I could do it over.
Speaker 2:I went to patrol when I was appointed. I went to patrol in the 10th precinct, which is like Chelsea section of Manhattan, and then from there I got. I was fortunate to get an assignment to the police commissioner's confidential investigating unit and from there on it was. It's been great. It was became a detective and involved in other agencies and it was a great career. It was 22 years and I left. Only reason I left is because the, the president of john jay college in new york of criminal justice asked me to take over the training program at john jay college and that's the reason I left. Otherwise I would have been there until still there if I could have.
Speaker 1:They'd have to carry you out right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the job yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's, that's a compliment in the law enforcement circles. Can you tell us about what it was like when you started and and how they all the training you received the first week and what? How did they? How did they bring an entrylevel person right out of the academy on the job?
Speaker 2:Well, I was doing a late tour and when I came off the late tour the desk officer who at that time was Barney McBrand he's the lieutenant he wanted to know if I had any clerical experience and I said, oh yes, I worked in Union Carbide for a while. Worked in Union Carbide for a while. So he asked me could I stay over and form a method of search for a lot of the cops that are going to be temporarily assigned there because we have a missing kid in the neighborhood. So I sat down at the desk and I wrote and I had blocks written up and then I got the names of the cops and who was in sign to what block and they searched and during that search one cop discovered the mutilated body and rape of a young girl named Edith Kikorius. It was terrible. He came into the precinct my room where I was the clerical, was right behind the desk officer and he was very upset and we spoke, we wrote a, we talked to him a bit and me.
Speaker 2:At the meantime, what was happening at this time at police headquarters was a great celebration because it was going to be a new chief inspector, a new chief of detectives and all that was taking place and in the meantime at the 10th precinct all the the press was gathering because the body was discovered. So I figured this is going to be a madhouse today and I had a little thing typed up and ready to go in case somebody needed it. So up comes the new chief of detectives and he comes in and he's a little bit sweaty and nervous, of course. He comes in and we're talking to him. He meets with the cop that discovered the body. He was still very upset and we gave him a little thing what to say. He went out in front of the desk and he spoke to all the press.
Speaker 2:Apparently it was a good presentation and he was very pleased with it, because about four hours later, when he was leaving and he went out, was going out the door. He stopped and he turned around and he said to the Lieutenant hey Lou, you and that guy over there meaning me be at my office tomorrow at nine o'clock. And that was the beginning. Was that luck or not? I mean, it's a shame the way it happened Otherwise I probably would have went right through patrol for 20 years and that there I was assigned to the Police Commissioner's Confidential Investigating Unit, which was basically a unit that did gambling investigations, and that was the beginning of my career, so how?
Speaker 1:long were you on the job, john, when this happened? Oh, I was.
Speaker 2:I think about a year, a year and a half. Okay, maybe two years. I'm not sure I was. Yeah, maybe two years. And with that job and I remember I was there, I was a clerical person and they, I didn't mind, I didn't like that, but I took it because it was a nice job and it was down in headquarters and then one time two detectives were going out on a gambling arrest and they needed help and they needed a driver really. So they asked me.
Speaker 2:So we went to Rockaway, far Rockaway, and it was in the wintertime, and I remember we went in. They had a warrant to arrest a place where they were doing bets over the phone and we went in the door, broke down the door and everything. They arrested the guy and they, I guess, because that was a nuisance to them, they told me, stay here and watch in case and answer the phones and take the bets. This way we'll do the business more harm. And I said, okay, I knew it was a way of getting rid of me. So I stayed there and I'm and I'm doing, answering the phone, doing the bets, had just a few coming in and I noticed outside a car pulls up and the guy gets out and he's looking all around. So I said said whoa?
Speaker 2:I hid in the closet, I said something's happening and he came upstairs, that guy, he went to the phones and he started taking all the bets. So I watched him for about 20 minutes and I did, I opened the closet and I scared the shit out of him and I called up the two detectives and I said what am I going to do with this guy? He's here taking bets and they couldn't believe it. And that was the beginning. I didn't have to go to the desk anymore and I was with the field units and it was great. And that was the beginning, right there. That was just luck. They would try to dump me. But another stroke of luck, another guy came into work and we made another arrest in the evening what?
Speaker 3:what kind of was that? A typical thing? Was that like a sports bet type operation? Yes, it was mostly.
Speaker 2:Was mostly sports betting, uh-huh, and mostly phones like they had what they accommodate horses only as a uh an act, like a luxury, like just an accommodation. Gotcha, we were mostly sports betting.
Speaker 3:How busy was it, uh. What was that kind of oh very?
Speaker 2:busy, very busy. Sports betting is. Betting is a big thing. Horse racing is active in certain areas.
Speaker 2:At that time we didn't have OTB at that time. Otb came in a little bit later, which I was a part of trying to stop it, but during OTB, when it came in, I went on. After a few weeks the big thing in New York at that time was OTB was going to knock out organized crime in gambling. After about a month we had made quite a few arrests and examination of the evidence showed it increased. So what I did is I typed up a paper for the chief and it was, and I put any labels on it and the chief had it.
Speaker 2:And I don't know what happened to this paper. The next day it was on. It was in the front page of the Times. My whole story. I said, oh geez, I'm finished. Now for sure it's a white paper. No, no, no signal Written by Jerry Eskenazi of the New York Times. But that white paper showed that it would only increase their bookmakers use the parlors and eventually it went out of business. They overexpanded. There's no more OTB in New York. It's out of business as of last year.
Speaker 1:So I guess I was right there. Could you explain what OTB is for our viewers? Off-track betting I'm sorry. Off-track betting Horses only.
Speaker 2:Okay, horses only. Okay, horses only.
Speaker 3:So you have to go to the track normally to bet, but this way you could just bet on any track in the world or whatever or in the region.
Speaker 2:In the region. Yeah, at one time we were into that. We had a post out at Aqueduct where we had a little house that had all machines in it that gave the telephone numbers of anybody around the area that would dial to try to place bets. And during that time I saw the individuals that tried to pass post. There was no phones allowed at the track and one guy would stand up and put a big number up or have a code and put his hand up. That's one is the first horse winner, so they could pass post.
Speaker 2:The bookmakers in New York. It was quite interesting just to watch them run, run the parking lot to get to where the guy that was near the phone and he was BSing and we were listening. At the time we had a court order to listen to this and that was my learning of it. It was, it was really, uh, an awakening. It was good, it was enjoyable doing the gambling.
Speaker 2:And then they had also which amazed me up on the cross bay boulevard. They, they had a couple of guys there that always sat with attache cases full of money that would, if there was a race that was going lopsided where everybody was betting on it, they would bring in the bed on other horses to bring it up. So if the payout was that good would nobody would get hurt and the mob wouldn't get hurt that was taking the bets to pay out of the, to bring down the payout of the horse. Everybody's betting on this 40 to one shot. And all of a sudden the 40 to one shot is if that payouts will be enormous. So they they get into the track, put money into the power mutual machine and the 40 to one shot would slim right down to 10 to one. But enough of betting on it. And that would, and bankers would be aware of it too.
Speaker 3:So so we're like the jockeys involved, or was it just all manipulation of the odds that was the hustle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not. We're not jockeys, it was just that it was. Uh, that's what they just monitored. They have people monitor that today. If that's a, they have a, a group, a private group, that does the monitoring of all sporting events, and watching the betting is what tells you if something's going wrong. But if it's organized, it's, it's hard to discover.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah so when you were monitoring the calls like was that a? Was that an early form of wire tapping or was that a different system?
Speaker 2:no, no, it's the same, the same system, except they just got fancier equipment and easier ways to do it. But the monitoring is the same. The I mean the equipment is electronically now. At that time there was no uh mod. There was the dialing was all manual, there was no uh.
Speaker 3:So, like when you, discovered when you discover it. Was it like when you discovered one of these phones that one of these uh guys was using? You would then record all the calls coming into that, or were, was there another?
Speaker 2:no, we're just waiting for the outgoing call of the bet.
Speaker 3:So so you already knew those incoming incoming on minimization incoming calls.
Speaker 2:If they had, it was. These were coin boxes that were around the track. Uh, okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. So we didn't want it. We only wanted the ones that were illegal the track. Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, we only wanted the ones that were illegal. We couldn't listen to the ones that weren't illegal. Gotcha, if a guy came in and he's called, it looked like a professional store answer or we just hang up our phone. He calls in and he says Jack for 32. Oh, that's the number we want. He's jack and 32 is the runner and then he gives his bets.
Speaker 3:It, that's the call we want interesting we're not interested in any other calls uh, that's, that's cool, that's cool yeah, it was the.
Speaker 2:That was. Yeah, it was. That's the way the codes worked on it. On the betting, how had it was? The first one was identifying the person bedding and the second one was his contact the runner how, uh, how soon after, like how long we're gonna? Do one on gaming. I have all those things for you. I have all those facts for you there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotta check those out. The um. So like, how quick after. I mean, how long would did it last before um, you know, the guys on the other side were like wait a second, they're, they're on our calls. You know when did like we're not you. Just, it was just, that's the way it. No, they never would do that?
Speaker 2:no, we would never, because we got it from the track. And these, how many people go to the track? Maybe three people called them, but they, you know, they've never found, they never found out out that particular way. They know it's somebody, but they felt somebody gave them up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so then they're all paranoid of their guys. Yeah, that's right. It's kind of a double whammy. That's it. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:They never suspected that we had these taps in. Some of them did. If it was the fancy bookmakers, they felt they must have a wire somewhere. In other words, and we used to get a lot of good calls. We'd just say the Jewish bookmakers were the funniest because they would have a if somebody was watching them. They would say Frankie Benny and Izzy's around, and I would say what the hell is that Frank? That means the FBI. They called him Frank Benny and Izzy the fbi. And now that was it. That was quite funny. I figured out well who's frankie benny and is he, and we don't know that group and that's who it was I love that.
Speaker 3:I love that. So, like um the other gambling stuff was there, like card rooms and that kind of stuff, or was it just all?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, card rooms and we used to have. We, our office, was responsible for organized crime dice games. Dice games was was organized by organized crime. It was definitely. We would go around and try to follow. There would be a lugger that's the guy that drove them there. Or if the persons were part of the game organized crime, they would go, they would go right to the game. But if the game was somewhere in the city and it was a professional table that had tons of eats there for the people and they would have like between 40 to 60 people gambling and this would happen during the middle of the night and this was a a big, a big thing, with the police department to try to stop this and we would watch them and the lugger would pick them up at like 49th and Broadway. That's where if you wanted to play dice that night. You would get down to 49th and Broadway and you'd wait there and the lugger would come along and take six or seven people in his car and his deal was not to be followed and he was tough, very tough to follow the lugger. He would go to Jersey, New Jersey, and come back in the tunnel, Then maybe go out to Jersey again and come back in again before going to the location. But we were lucky once in a while.
Speaker 2:Our breakthrough came one time when we raided a dice game up and arrested a dice game up there. We had the table, we had all the chips and everything. We were booking the people, we were writing the arrest cards up and we noticed the food was always delicious Italian cold cuts of every brand, the best bagels in town. And we found a receipt in McDonald's Avenue for the bakeries. Hey, this guy gets his bagels at McDonald's, you know, on McDonald's Avenue in Brooklyn. And we said, gee, we kept that receipt.
Speaker 2:And a week later we decided to watch the bagel store in Brooklyn. And we watched the bagel store and along comes a guy, gets like four dozen bagels, puts them in a car, let's follow him. And there he was. He was the. He was the food guy for the ice games. He was easy to follow because he didn't know anybody was behind them and he led us to a lot of great places and they could never figure out how we got them so fast.
Speaker 2:We were following the bagel guy and it was an interesting. It was really amazing. He didn't have to go through this. I mean we used to follow them to Jersey and back and in and out of traffic and Broadway. It was a mess. Fortunately nobody got in an accident. This was a pleasure following the bagel man and he would oh, he would get the cold cuts too. He would have the cold cuts. He'd get them from 18th Avenue in Brooklyn and he would go right to the game and we would sit there and watch it about. He would get there like 8.30, 8, 9 o'clock, set the whole thing up. In comes the players around 11, 12, 1 and it's packed. By 1.30 in the morning it's packed and that's the time we would always hit it when it was packed.
Speaker 3:And so would everyone get arrested, or were you just kind of looking for the top people?
Speaker 2:Yes, they were kind of arrested During one of those games. We got John Gotti in one of those games when he was a young loan shark. He was at the game. It was organized crime. It was definitely organized crime running it. There was, I have to say, 40 people at the game. I would say 20 are part of the game. The other 20 are just contributing to the game. I would say 20 are part of the game. The other 20 are just contributing to the money, just putting the money in. It was well done. It was honestly done. By the way, plus, the big thing at the game was the loan sharks. They were there and they would lend you money if you needed more money, at a high rate of interest, of course.
Speaker 3:They're like the ATMs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with a serious service charge, that rate of interest. Of course they're like the.
Speaker 3:ATMs yeah, with a serious service charge. That's the only gambling I encountered in.
Speaker 2:The only other gambling I ever came across was an FBI tech. He was an FBI guy that got. He was the Boston FBI tech and he got transferred Boston FBI tech and he got transferred to the city and he well, I don't know how far can you tell. Oh well, it's the truth, you know. I want to know. Talk about it because it was an interesting case.
Speaker 2:He went to one of the clubs, not clubs, one of the nice bars in Manhattan where one of the bars where the clubs in the not clubs one of the nice bars in Manhattan where one of the bars where a CI worked in there and this guy was this particular agent was so wanted to ingratiate him so much he just kept bragging. He was an FBI guy and nobody believed him and all the cop that was there got the information. He would send it down to headquarters. Head headquarters would look at it and not pay attention. Then one day the undercover cop up there says, hey, let me see your id. So they gave him his. He gave the id to the cop, he made a xerox of it in the back, then he gave it back to him. Then he sent down the id to headquarters. The next thing we know the chief is gone to washington. Then he sent down the ID to headquarters. The next thing we know the chief is gone to Washington with the head of the FBI from New York.
Speaker 2:And we also in the meantime we said, oh, they're going to ruin our case because this guy's going to be a bonus to us. So we ran across the street and got a court order for a pen register in court and we put the pen register on his home phone, which is in Manhattan. And we had to put the pen register on his home phone, which is in Manhattan. And we had to put the pen register on his home phone in a manner that he couldn't discover because he parked his car right near where the terminal box was downstairs. So we had to take the whole thing apart and put it in the back and like weld it in in a way.
Speaker 2:So once they came back from Washington the FBI thing was we're going to transfer him to the task force in Florida. But we had a pen register order so they couldn't do it right away. But eventually they got him out of the way to transfer him and they did transfer him. A year later he comes back and he was arrested and thrown out of the FBI. But they didn't want us getting too close to the FBI. We had put a pen register on his desk phone at 69th Street and oh, it was World Trade Center. No, was he at the desk? Yeah, the desk set up at 69th Street and also his home, which was on 3rd Avenue, manhattan. That was an interesting case. Just trying to beat and he got. Eventually he was arrested. So I don't know what his sentence was, but I thought it was a great case and it was to the efforts of the narcotics court that helped us get the pen register orders.
Speaker 3:What's a?
Speaker 2:pen register. Pen register is at that time before touchtone, dialing pen registers give you the digits of the number dialed. It would be like a teletype or the printer from the Wall Street ticker tape All digits. If a guy dialed a nine, you get nine dashes. Then it'd be a space for a two or a one. That was before touchtone. After that it became well when it became touchtone, which we thought was the biggest thing in the world because we couldn't get the number anymore. But eventually we got around that too.
Speaker 3:So it's like basically like the rotary phones, it's like basically like the rotary phones. It's like giving you a call log of the calls going out and coming in or just going out.
Speaker 2:Incoming in would be a series of short dashes, and that was to let us know it was an incoming.
Speaker 1:Outgoing would be nine long dashes there on a white thin piece of paper, a thin strip. Yeah, let me just add that I've worked with John on this and not installing an app, but on cases in the gold industry we would look for the couriers and a pen. Correct me if I'm wrong, john. It was good for like 60 days and you had to renew it within the 60-day period to get it to continue and do an affidavit why you need it.
Speaker 1:But it generated a lot of leads that you know you would instead of you know following the target around and doing that, you would find where he was calling or she, and it was a great tool at the time, wow.
Speaker 3:But you have to like have some evidence come up in 60 days, or else it won't get renewed, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, usually you had it very fast. It would come in and you know, creature's a habit, they're on the phone and you'd say, oh, this isn't the. We actually used these things called crisscross directories. Remember those, john, the crisscross the books we had? We had them in each group and agents. You had to leave that book there because we were all working cases and sometimes somebody calling sick and we couldn't find a book to use, so we had to go to another group. It was really ancient technology, but but that's that would list the addresses and stuff. So we what we were doing is trying to save time and and and the unit at customs I'm jumping ahead, but that John worked in. They were, they were doing all the electronic surveillance for the whole, actually the whole state, a lot of the time and Beyond. I'll let John continue with the Boston part.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. No, the technical surveillance was definitely necessary. I didn't know if you wanted to go into that. We had a lot of great cases through technical surveillance. We worked with every agency the DEA, we had the abortion bomber. We were able to track down and get in New York before he blew up. Another unit and working with them was great the ATF and all the other agencies, because nobody gave you a tough time, it was just trying to get the technical part done and we always was able to get the technical part done and it just was great. Okay, I don't know how far you.
Speaker 1:No, discuss the cases.
Speaker 2:We came up with the first ones that use tracking devices, where you're able to put a gadget on a car and then you sit in the office and watch it where it goes. You know that was a company came down and asked us to try it out for them, and we did. We put it on the car and we were able to sit in the office and have a map and see where the guy was going, so we didn't have to follow him, and it was a great invention. We did that for hijackers, hijacking and everything.
Speaker 3:What year you know time frame was that?
Speaker 2:Oh, this was in the. I guess the 70s. Wow, yeah, the was in the. I guess the. Uh, the seventies Wow yeah, the seventies before. Yeah, it was in about the seventies, I'm not sure the timeframe about the seventies.
Speaker 3:So you'd have like a map? Was it like a whole interface where, because nothing was digital, then obviously On the screen, just like on the screen.
Speaker 2:Like you know, you have your, your, your, your, your tracking. Now to get it, where do you want to go? To a certain place, your streets and everything where you have a voice. Delegate. This would give us the street and follow the the item and a tracking device was put on. What it was was magnetic and you could put it underneath the car at one time and you can put it on without a court order. Long as it wasn't in the driveway of the guy's home, it was on a public place. You could go underneath and stick it on because you weren't violating anything, and then you would go home, back to the office, call the office and you just watch where the car went. You know where you could watch it park and stop and everything. That was the beginning of it. That was the crude, that was the old method. I'm sure it's far more advanced now than ever.
Speaker 3:Okay, do it from the satellite yeah, the gps, but that was like I mean that that must.
Speaker 2:That was a yeah, that's, that's exactly where it was before the gps.
Speaker 3:That must have felt like like james bond technology it was.
Speaker 2:It was, it was. It was amazing to give demonstrations of it because nobody could believe you could sit in downtown in manhattan and watch the guy drive around the city and where he was going. That's wild and everybody was bored by it and I was awed by it and the company that came down was very generous. That's that developed it, because they let us use it first, and it was. It was exceptionally great, it was was wonderful. Now I I'm trying to go down the list here. I'm trying to figure out what I mean. I'm not sure of what kind of information you want. I'll tell you one quick story. This is like one of the unusual things. Well, maybe it's against the FBI again, but that's all right, I don't mind that a bit. And we had an investigation going up in Hanover, mass, and it was the FBI. This one I think you'll enjoy. This one was on organized crime Lebanese I think it was. I'm not sure of that, but my mind is slipping. But we went up there to meet with them one night in Boston. I was out of Fort Lauderdale. I met with the FBI tech people and they had a bug which is a microphone inside a business in Boston. Well, not Boston, it was Ann Arbor. And I said, okay, and we had an order to go in and put our own bug in too, which is kind of silly, but we had an order. But they said we had the order and they said, okay, we're going to remove our bug. I said, don't do that, we won't touch the wires. I said don't go in. Again they said, oh no, we have to go in, we'll do that, we won't touch the wires, don't go in. Again they said, oh no, we have to go in. I said, okay, we had a meeting that night. So the next day was a saturday where I was meeting with uh, an atf guy, and we were going to we were, he was, he was the undercover, he was going to take his inside the office because he he was dealing with the subject and I was just, I was from the ira and I was going to be his communications guy as the undercover. So we met him in the morning. It was, snow had just finished and we were driving to his office and as we're going in the office, he opened the door and we went in. As we were walking to the office to go to his private office, I noticed a ladder all the way in the back and I said, oh so the my, the guy from the atf, the guy that was working with the other officer. He went inside with him and I said, give me a minute, I just want to check out back because that was my job to check for wires. I went back there and here's the ladder up against the wall, where the, where their bug was, where they put the wires for the bug, and here that FBI property of the FBI, boston, written on the side. So I said, oh geez. So I took the ladder and I went out the back door and I tore it in the snow and then I came back in and we did our job and eventually we got our job.
Speaker 2:For part of being the IRA was they were getting hash oil delivered and I was going to get, we were going to get guns. That was the undercover with the ATF and but it was was. I couldn't believe it when I saw the lettering and we threw it out and we completed the case and it was great, it was a good case and it was the guys pled guilty. It was part of an organized crime thing. But during that investigation which puzzled me more than anything, and I guess I never said it. We came up with a part there where we remember the American soldiers that were head of the prisoner Anderson. They were held prisoners somewhere in I'm not sure where it was, but we found out they had the cells in Abscana County underneath a gas station, terry Anderson Terry Anderson it was him Journalist and so we submitted this information to Washington DC and forgot about it.
Speaker 2:And a year later I'm watching the film on television news and there's our gas station and they're taking them out of the cells at Nevada which we reported a year before. So I said, gee, how did they? We told them about that a year ago. How come they didn't do anything? It's one of those things. I'll probably get the hell beat out of me for that, but that was one of the things. It's great to get this stuff out. Let me tell you. Oh, now it's history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's exactly right, it is history. It is history. It is history. That was. The latter incident was the funniest thing that ever happened to me with that and we covered it up. Nobody got involved. The whole case continued on away and it was.
Speaker 2:We were lucky. We were very lucky, or I should sayie benny and izzy was, but it was. We got a a lot, a lot of good things. We tried different things. We tried to just you know, interesting things that happened.
Speaker 2:We, I remember we were one night putting a tracking device on on a boat in pompano, florida, florida, and we had the police department watching across the canal in case something happened. If there was a run by the police, like a burglar or something, they would be able to stop it because they were watching us. And as we were there, the guy came out and we were inside the boat putting. He had a wire in the tracking device. There was three of us and we and he stood up right on top of his dock and we were all quiet, laying down. We all had dark clothes on and he had a smoke and he tore it away and he went back in and so we'd be able to stall the tracking device and got the hell out of there.
Speaker 2:But the thing was that the the officer that was assigned from the police department. He panicked. He was so upset that he was going to discover us and he wanted to know what to do. He was. He came to us at the end. He says what would you guys done if he he found you? Now he said he came to us at the end and said what would you guys do if he found you? And we said we would probably throw him in the water. What, what do you mean? Throw him in the water? We're not going to get caught. He says oh good, I didn't know what to do if he came down there.
Speaker 2:It was a good series, a good era and it was a lot of fun and we tried to do all the jobs that way and it's just, uh, it just it's interesting. I mean, there's tons of things I was on and I'm trying to figure the white ones to do what they wants to, uh, that you would enjoy or what people would enjoy. Well, there's a lot of bookmaking and how to move the wires around. That will wait as another day in gambling. You want to do one in gambling eventually.
Speaker 1:Yes, we want that with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, avoid that. And we had to install a mic in Niagara Falls.
Speaker 1:In Niagara.
Speaker 2:Falls. Where would you put it? Here's what we did. No, no, it was in a motel right outside Niagara Falls. The motel was a horseshoe shape with about, I think, uh, 30 rooms and they they used the first one on the right as you came in now. The purpose of this was not to use the telephone. The guy used to sit there every day and other people used to come and get messages. It was organized crime. So they gave us the job of putting a bug in there. So we got a room down the other end and we were in that room and we're trying to figure out how are we going to get in that room to put a bug in there. Plus, the owners might know.
Speaker 2:So we found a trap inside our linen closet and the trap led underneath the motel, which was all sand. So we crawled down in the sand and when we got to his hotel we pushed open the trap and out came a scale that they weighed the drugs on. So we knew we had the right room. So we took down the scale and we went up there and they used to sit in a room. There was wallpaper. We moved the wallpapers and we put the microphone there back down, close up the trap back to our motel room where the thing was, and they had great success with that. But that was one of the most interesting ones because we got to crawl maybe 20 yards in the sand on our belly to get to that motel and make sure we had the right room above us, because all those are connected on on the neat and it was. It was an interesting thing and it was. That was like one of the good ones and then one of the other ones that I remember outstanding was we had we used to get these title trees, which is basically a wire tap, and we were working with our our west palm office and customs and the titles they were this they never had one before and I was up there to instruct them and install it.
Speaker 2:So we got it signed on a Friday afternoon and I went to the prosecutor and I said when are we going to have minimization hearings, meaning anybody that sits in a wire must be instructed by the US Attorney's Office about when to listen, when not to listen. So I talked to the prosecution it's Friday, what are we going to do? And I said, well, let's call the squad in and start the wiretap. And a lot of the cops were mad. But we called it in and they all came in and it was about 5 o'clock, 5.15, and everybody was in the Fort Pierce office and was sitting there and he said and he's starting to describe it and I put the machine down, plugged it in and in comes a call and the attorney said okay, here it starts, here's how it works.
Speaker 2:In comes call and the call is about the boat arrived, it's down, it's on its way, it's a sailboat and it's being towed with the drugs in it up the up 95. Now we couldn't believe that. That's. That was the purpose of the wiretap. So we had to get they. They immediately left the room and they got the. Uh, they got the florida highway patrol and we were able they were unable to accept to get the coke and the sailboat.
Speaker 2:Now that was the fastest wiretap ever. One call and that was it and it was over. Good thing we stayed, otherwise we would get come the next day or on saturday or monday and we say, oh boy, what happened? Somebody gave us up. You know, we would be the worst, we would think the worst and we got it. We're just lucky. The first. Just they're given instructions, the us given it and then it comes a call. It's yes, we got it, we're on our way, and that was it, very few words. And the wiretap was over the cheapest wiretap I think we ever installed, because we didn't know all the time.
Speaker 3:Know everything, you know paperwork and nothing ah, so that's part of that's part of the cost of it. Is the monitoring paying people to monitor it and sit there?
Speaker 2:over time. You have to bring people in because you have to do sometimes 24 hours on it, so it's a big cost and you have to lay out all the plans for it and everything like that. It is a big cost, but it's definitely worth it if you have the right subjects.
Speaker 3:Right. So what's the range on that transmission, the wiretap?
Speaker 2:Talking about range, we had to put a microphone once in Washington DC a bug in an office and we monitored in our office in New York. That was a gadget that one of the private companies made for me and I was part of the installation in Washington DC. In fact it was the hardest installation because it was on a person that slept in the office. It was one of those buildings on DuPont that you could stay there and it had a shower down the block. It had half a cafeteria machines but the guy lived there. So it was really tough for us.
Speaker 2:But he had one thing that he always played soccer every Wednesday and he went at night in Virginia. He would take the car and we had to wait for him to leave before we could get up to his office and put the bug in. He had prostitutes to visit him. He would never leave this place and it was a very interesting case. But I'll never know the outcome because it all involved the CIA and everything like that. It was really unbelievable names. When we went in that office to put it in, it was you know the names of spies. So we were assisted then but we monitored it in New York. I had set the wiring up and we had a gadget called a slave that would transmit that they called in from New York and it opened the line right to them and whenever he used the phone there were two minimization in New York. Nothing to do with the Washington office or anything like that.
Speaker 2:And that was the first time it was ever done and it worked out excellent, so it was transmitting through the phone line. Yeah, right through the phone line. Wow, yeah, that was amazing. Imagine just dialing one number that opened the lines. It was just like a relay system that was wide open. Yeah, yeah, it could be expensive if you used real telephone lines, but we used a government system which is like what is that called? What would we call the government system? Fts, john, fts, yeah, free telephone service.
Speaker 1:Free telephone service.
Speaker 2:So it didn't cost how much it was.
Speaker 3:Call Grandma on.
Speaker 2:Sundayay how you doing that was. That was a very interesting one. We first time ever done remotely and we didn't have to have any go look for any apartment down there or rent department, everything like that. We did it from the office in new york and it was, it was installing the bug took about. We did so much preliminary work on it.
Speaker 2:We went in that night when he left, when he oh but wait, when we were standing in the dupont hotel around the corner waiting for him to leave for a soccer match, which he did every wednesday or whatever tuesday, and we met a, uh, one of the reporters, that was an anchor, and he saw us there and we were going in the back door and he was coming out the back door and he looked at us and he said good luck, fellas. We said thanks, I mean he was I won't mention his name, but he was good. I don't know why. He was coming out the back door at the hotel and we were going in the back door door and we went down the block and installed it. Uh, that night it was really it was.
Speaker 3:I enjoyed that case because it took a was a challenge, it was a real challenge so, so like it, I would assume that getting caught would be the thing you're worried about the most, right when you're installing no, no, oh you, you do precautions, you do your job, you do your homework you won't get caught. So no one. No one ever on the boat that was the closest call? No one ever.
Speaker 2:Or actually in the closet.
Speaker 3:The closet was the closest call right.
Speaker 2:No, no, that was different. I hid there on purpose. That had nothing to do with wiretapping or anything. Yeah, yeah, gotcha gotcha.
Speaker 3:I never got caught.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you never got, never got caught. And because you, you got to plan this, you just can't jump out and do something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. I was watching something you know recently and they were talking about wiretapping john gotti's like the hunting fish club or whatever it was called, and yes, and there was a fish, yeah, yeah, yeah, and they um, and there was like people walking around and and whoever they were talking to, it seemed like they all. It was like a very close call. It was almost one of those things where they came within feet of them and it was like had to have been terrifying oh, yeah, that was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was. They were trying to figure out where he was giving the orders and they thought they were trying to bug the club. But he was giving the orders from an apartment upstairs, from one some woman who left, retired and moved out. That's where he used to hold his his thing. That's where he had the big conversation about granada. I'll see me the bull and they and that's when they found out he turned on sammy the bull and they just went and showed it hurts. Let sammy the bull see this conversation and he became their best informant ever and that's what that was the end of John Cotting Right.
Speaker 3:Because Sammy figured he was done and so he flipped. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:They were so close and Sammy the Bull was his right-hand man, is right and he double-crossed him. He didn't like him, it was his ego.
Speaker 3:Were you involved in that at?
Speaker 2:that time or no no, I wasn't involved in none of that, none of that, which was all right with me. Yeah, they did a good job on that, they, they. But sammy the bull was the one that when they turned him, that was the end of god, he and all of them, and that was the best thing that happened. One of the interesting things I ran into that was one time we were following a we call him like a Broadway bookmaker. He just he was. I had, I was assigned to follow him and he'd come in by train and he would go over by the New York Athletic Club in their Central Park and he would sit there and he would do his pay and collects there.
Speaker 2:Now I noticed one day when I was following was a spring day, it was beautiful, and he met a couple of people. I didn't know who they are, but one guy I thought I recognized him but I could never repeat his name because he looked like a person that was well-known. But I just let it go. But I followed him later from then and he went to Dinty Moore's restaurant, which was on 47th Street and you have to take an elevator up to Dinty Moore's on the third floor, and so I followed him up in the elevator and I looked inside the restaurant, went inside and he's sitting down with two other people. One I recognize one right away is Frank Costello, and the other one was an attorney. So I called up the chief and I said hey, chief, let me. I said this the bookmaker is sitting with and he said go in and arrest him. I said, okay, what for vacancy? Because they have no proof of jobs. There was a law on the books in New York where if you didn't have any gainful employment you can't. You have to have some sort of gainful employment and have identification. And I announced myself and Frank Costello and the bookmaker. So the only person that didn't have proof of employment was Frank Costello, but he had the most cash. So I arrested him for vagrancy and this was a big, big thing. It was, I guess, a light day in the city for nothing going on. So I called the chief, I said I'm taking him down in the car to Manhattan Court and when I got there it was like Times Square with all the press. I said I can't get over this. Costello was very cordial and he went along with the procedure and I got him down to the court and then the boss brought another cop down from my office to help me. So you go in with the arraignment. He wanted me to hide because they didn't want me to be seen. So the cop went in with the arraignment and I hid. But I talked to Frank on the way down. I was telling him about the.
Speaker 2:This was a times when there was a lot of uh like talks about the police department and corruption and gambling and everything like that. And I told frank. I said well, you're going to be interviewed and everything like that. If you want to go out the back way, I'll take you out the back way, whatever you want. He went to court is he had his? Like three attorneys came down and they settled the case immediately in at a ring out, and so frank is coming out and I asked him if you want to go out, I'll take you out the back way. And he said no. So he went down in the elevator and when he opened the elevator all the press was there and they asked him a question they talked about one press guy was talking about betting in new york city.
Speaker 2:Isn't it terrible? And he said wait a minute, let me tell you something. The way this department working. They're doing the best job in the world. We can't get a bet in outside of the track and I, oh boy, we want it good. And he looks over at me, was that okay, john, he was very cordial about that, but that was a very interesting time with him. He was very cordial about that, but that was a very interesting time with him. Frank Costello, he was quite enjoyable, just for that ride downtown and the arrest and everything like that. At Ninky Moore's. He was the only one that got arrested for three for vacancy because the others had their W-2 forms and everything with them.
Speaker 3:So he was the boss then right, he was the boss of bosses. He was maybe coming up through the ranks pretty high, I don't know. He was the boss then right, he was the well, he was maybe coming up, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:He was. He was up there but I don't know what he was doing there, but he was very, very cordial about it and he was interesting. And now it's just. And then I did another great thing that happened to me along the way, when I left the police department and I went to John Jay and I just got a little tired of being at John Jay and I was able to get into customs my first week in customs. Our new deputy commissioner gets a call that they want me at the trial of the commission trial that's going on over in New York. That was the big trial with the cement where so much of 5% went to the families of every drop of cement that was laid in New York. That was the big trial with the cement where so much of 5% went to the families of every drop of cement that was laid in New York City. And so the guy I remember, our guy said go ahead over there.
Speaker 2:I went over there and then the FBI in their pursuit of this investigation decided to put wiretaps on a lot of gambling operations. Investigation decided that to put wiretaps on a lot of gambling operations and they accumulated quite a bit of evidence. So now the big defense was the lawyers, which was like four or five of them, and and plus the all the mob guys. The big defense was all this, this piece of paper, these papers were all gambling evidence. So my job was to go to I. I spent almost a week down at the room going over all the work, all the information. They seized the paperwork. And then came the trial. So I went, so the trial was going on and I was came.
Speaker 2:I remember walking in to go to the defendants who were there. It was Fat Tony, salerno et al. So as I was, as I walked to go to take the seat of the testify, fat Tony stands up and says hey, you retired, you can't testify. He stands up in court and says this, this trial go on, is they try to. And I took these pieces of paper and I proved to them that their pieces of paper was how much of every drop of cement, what put in New York City? 5% went to the five families, 1% to each family, and that was millions and millions of dollars worth of cement. And so we were able to convict them on that, because it was not gambling paper, because they had boxes and boxes of evidences that they brought in and I had to go through a lot of it and it was on the stand for I think two days half and it was quite a piece of.
Speaker 2:The lawyers were good. They were very smart lawyers they were. They knew their gambling but they but I doing gambling too long not to be able to fool me that they said this sheet of paper that they had this percentage of the cement went to the five families and they got convicted. That was a very unusually interesting case. I enjoyed that but I didn't like the week and stuck in the office going through all the bets. But that was part of the job, to be prepared. It was a good time. I got a quick question.
Speaker 1:Come on, so did you want to?
Speaker 2:know about. What are you interested in?
Speaker 1:I want to ask you this is kind of off the beat, but didn question I want to ask you this is kind of off the beat, but Dinty, dinty Moore's is that Dinty Moore beef stew they sell?
Speaker 2:in stores.
Speaker 1:No, no, I'm thinking like we used to have that in my house on like Fridays. If my dad had a bad week of sales, then we'd have Dinty Moore B Stew and that there was a five-star restaurant that was owned by a woman.
Speaker 2:It was on the third floor, right off, I think, 47th Street. You had to go up and take the private elevator up to it. It was really like a class restaurant. They had lunch there. We were having lunch there. It was really like a class restaurant.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And they had lunch there. It was crowded. No, Dizzy North was the name of the restaurant. I don't even know if it still exists.
Speaker 1:Huh, I have no idea, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. And now another crazy thing we had one time was one of the groups down there was getting somebody was getting the guns from the arsenal in Knoxville, tennessee, and selling them to the bad guys and the druggies, and it happened to be a sergeant in the reserve and they wanted to know. What can we do about this? So what we did is we were able to go to Knoxville, we put up a camera I don't know if this would work, but it did work we put up a camera on where they would put the guns before they were sold and we put the camera there and we were able to monitor the camera in Miami, which was very interesting. It didn't produce that much the camera there and we were able to monitor the camera in miami, which was which was very interesting. It didn't produce that much the camera, but it was. It was an accomplishment to get it done. And because I remember down I was in when I went down to the blue ridge mountains to put this camera in, uh I, the truck I had, I barred, ran off the road because I was looking at where the cable ran and I rode down the hill about 100 yards so I had to get it towed out. But I used my private triple a so I didn't want it.
Speaker 2:But that night, when I was ready to go home, they asked me to go and check out this bar to see if this particular sergeant is there, because they I don't know what they were doing. So I said, oh gee. So it took me almost 25 minutes to find it at night up in the mountains. So I found the bar and I remember parking and it was a lot of these, these trucks there and everything. So I went in and as I went in everything stopped. There was packed and I said oh geez. So I looked, I stood there in the doorway and it was right by the bar. It started and people were looking at me because I'm a stranger, I don't belong there, and I asked them. I said do I have to leave or can I get a drink? And the bartender was come on in. And then everybody went back to their business and, sure enough, they asked me to look for them and the sergeant was sitting in the back there with the people they wanted to know. They just wanted to identify him at that bar.
Speaker 2:But it was kind of strange. When I went in there, everything stopped and fortunately you just got to be. Oh my God, I wanted to leave but the bartender wouldn't let me leave and I was able to spot him. I stayed a while, had a few drinks, then just left and he was eventually arrested for selling the arms out of the armory because he was in charge of the armory. He had like 30 years in the National Guard, so he was gone. That was one of the cases that Miami held. I'm sure you were aware of that case. Jerry Lang had that case. Yeah, gary, it was an exodus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it was an exodus case. I remember that one. Yeah, gary, it was in Exodus. Yeah, yeah, it was an Exodus case.
Speaker 2:I remember that one. Yeah, it was an Exodus case. You know what I?
Speaker 1:do remember, john, is we had a gold. We were doing gold cases. I wasn't the case agent but I had the undercover customs brokerage and we had an agent working with a convicted felon who was an informant. I had an agent working with a convicted felon who was an informant he's since deceased and the operation's taken down which it lasted over 20 years and it fell down due to corruption with an agent, with a lady who was his maid and accepting watches and all this. It's really sad, really pissed me off and I actually saw him years later after he got out of jail. But anyway, this time we were.
Speaker 1:I didn't do a lot of undercover like this Mostly the Hispanic agents would do that but it was my chance, it was. I was like a money guy, you know, coming in from Massachusetts, obviously, and that, and we were meeting with somebody that was interested. So the agent who was working there was the broker. So John had wired up the place, you know. So it was activated if we pushed a button, you know, a concealed thing and like a bank, you know, when somebody came in. So I'm sitting there and this guy comes in and he says to me he's nervous and I said to him oh, where are you from, I said to me. I said I'm from Massachusetts. He goes, me too. I went to Northeastern University. Where did you go? And of course that struck a bell. So I said, well, I kind of dropped out of Harvard, you know. I said and that but anybody that goes to Northeastern, there's a very high percentage chance they're a criminal justice major and a federal agent, because we had programs, co-op programs, that would graduate. We knew a bunch of people in customs that did that. Yeah, yeah, right out of college you get a job, it's great. So I look at him and I go Northeastern. Huh, okay, so we do the tape. We agree to another meeting later on.
Speaker 1:So I was able to get a yearbook about his approximate age and identified him. But what really struck me was he was the PIO person for the FBI, the public information officer. I knew I had seen him. So anyway, went up, talked to the FBI and said look, I don't know what you. He says well, one of the targets we had, they were looking at, they had seen him come there. You know, it was like the cases were separate customs and the FBI but because of installing these devices, because what had happened was. We had surveillance teams in the parking lot, fbi cars, customs cars. We didn't know each other, everybody's armed. Now there's these mechanisms, now that when you do an operation like that you're able to clear with you know there's a clearinghouse for law enforcement which tells you you know anybody else working this, not the facts of the case, but just for safety. So for safety alone, I'm grateful to John Murray for putting that in and setting it up, because otherwise, you know, it could have been disastrous, you know, in that parking lot. So that's probably one of the things that we've seen.
Speaker 1:I've also seen John's work. John, do you remember? You told me this story about the hat with the camera in it that they would use for a face-to-face. They used this to hand-buy drugs and guns. It was great. The only problem is somebody leaked it to High Times Magazine. You know it was the end of that. But John, could you talk about some some I'm sure everybody'd be interested in the cases, like the Wolf of Wall Street and Serpico and that group? Everybody's seen those movies.
Speaker 2:Well, the Wolf of Wall Street really was Dave Marwell's case. I was. I assisted Dave because I used to wire up the rooms for the hotels on Florida and it was nice to be able to go into the Fontainebleau and the nice hotels like that and wire them up for Dave. They did such a great, a long, tedious, good job on it. We never got caught and everything went successful. It was a successful thing. The Wolf of Wall Street. I take my hat off to Dave the way it was planned and you were on that, toby too, with Dave quite a bit. It was an extremely interesting case to watch and you sit back.
Speaker 2:But another crazy one we had, you might know, was I was assigned to the grand cayman a couple of times to go with one group for to put in, you know, wire up people. One was they had a uh, it was one of the detectives from the grand cayman couldn't arrest this group of people and he didn't know how. So he told me where they were meeting out in the Grand Cayman, a certain spot where they sat around like a table outdoor table. But they couldn't get these guys. So I went up there. I took him one day. He was a detective. He was a very nice detective assigned to Grand Cayman police. We went up there and I looked around and I took one of the pineapple coconut shells and I brought it back to the hotel and I was able to. I just took it apart and I put a KEL in it. A KEL is a device that is a microphone that is transmitted at a certain at so many hertz. So I put the and then we went back that that morning early and we put the coconut with the rest of the coconuts that fell off the tree and in comes the bad guys and all the conversations he heard. He was so excited, the detective, they were able to go in and arrest everybody there and they had a big day and they put him in the local jail. But they were so happy there.
Speaker 2:I remember we used to go to the, their local bar, which was inside the compound, at night and they would celebrate about getting this particular guy and the dogs. So they asked me now to go into the cells to put a microphone because they had some murder suspects and so you line up to go with into the cells and the dogs are. Really they accepted me and the other prisoners were wondering why they accepted me. Just to put, I wanted to put a microphone in one of the cells but that didn't materialize because there was no place to really hide it. But it was amazing to work with them, so, knowing the detectives down there they had. They asked me listen, we have a cricket team and we're trying to get uniforms for them, but they have no money. So I said how much do you have? So I said well, when I get back to the city I'll go to a place in the Bronx, new York, and we'll find out.
Speaker 2:So when I got back I went up to a uniform place in the Bronx and the guy said he would do the 25. He gave me 25 blazers with the with the imprint of the cricket team in it, to go down to the at a dirt bottom price. So I called the detective there and he said okay, here's what we got to do Now how do we get them down there? They said we can't pay the duty on this, cause it'll be more than the thing. So he got the grand Cayman uh airline to meet down in the miami airport to meet me and I ran and I came in the back way for which I was customs. I was able to get to with this big box of 25 sports jackets and they and they put it on the grand cayman plane and they took, and the plane took off and they next thing I do, I got a picture of the 25 minute march into a big cricket meet out there with their uniforms.
Speaker 2:It was really I enjoyed doing that. It was, we got it, we got it done and they were so happy to get their uniforms, the, the uh, the grand cayman police, and I was, oh, that was a long time ago, jeepus. You know, I'm sorry, tony, but it was interesting. Once these things come back to me, they, they ring bells and it's. It gets me nostalgia in a way. I mean I miss it. It's been many years ago. I mean I've been around a long time. I'm 87.
Speaker 1:I was telling the other day people that I've talked to that's how you really tell the real cops is if you miss the job, you know, and you miss it every day. One of my mentors said to me. He said I miss this every day. You know, I really do. And when you reconnect, I think one of our guests said it's like 30 years have gone by in 10 to to talk about that. I. I say it's like talking about a woman from 30 years ago. You know she was the most beautiful girl in the bar. Who knows what she looks like now? And vice versa, for you ladies too, the guy that was there, you know, that's why people go to reunions you know, they don't go there to renew, they just want to see how everybody looks.
Speaker 1:You know what happened to you over the years, so, and that um, can you talk? Can you touch on serpico a little bit? Your any experience that you had?
Speaker 2:now, I'm really now, I'm really dating you now I'm dating you, john murray, I know I had one experience with Serpico.
Speaker 2:The chief of the public morals division asked me to go with Serpico to this place on 116th Street where they're taking policy bets. Now I met Frank and we went up in one car. I drove and Frank was. He did not look like a cop, he was a long beard. He had an overcoat because it was wintertime. A long beard, he had an overcoat because it was wintertime. And we went up there and we watched. We were on 16th Street, we were watching the people excuse me going in a certain store and I said, okay, frank, there's your place to go bet. And he kept saying that he'd be getting made, he'd get made. So oh boy, I mean I was really upset Get made man, get made, it's all cheapest. So I said okay. After about a half hour I said let's well, if you think you're going to get made, let's call it off. So I took him back to headquarters and I went in to see the chief. I said don't you ever put me out with him again, because he will not. He would not do the job. He said he'd get made me. And it was perfectly right way to do it. People, and frank was the only one we could. He could have got in and out of anywhere the way he operated, but that was the only time I worked with sepulchral and that was it it was. I was very disappointed and and he was so fearful of doing the job, so we're just. That's a shame. Another one we had.
Speaker 2:I had a great thing with the smuggling group when I first arrived there from the police department. They had a group out where they were getting that cleaners on Atlantic Avenue where they kept their frogman suits. And what happened when the ship came in, which was the docking, was only about two blocks away. It would tie up one of the big shippings, one of the commercial ships, and at the bottom of the ship is an enclosed cabinet under the water. And that cabinet they found out that cabinet they would put the drugs in there. So. But you could search the whole ship but you could never search out unless you went under the water.
Speaker 2:So the smuggling group got wind of this and they wanted to know it. So we put a wire tap in that particular dry cleaners where they would go and get their uniforms and go down to the water. So one night I was going down there because the wire broke and they couldn't hear anymore. So I said, oh, something's wrong. And I just went from New York City into customs and I said, oh gee, I'll go out and get it. And I remember I had a call in sector and telling me he said what do you mean? Nobody does that here in customs. I said, well, I got to fix that wire and so I went and he said, okay, I went down there and I had to go around the corner on Atlantic Avenue, go down a stairway to the backyards, and as I was doing that and this was like maybe 9 or 10 o'clock at night, winter night there was a guy attacking a woman and of course I stopped that and the woman didn't. No prosecution, no cause, he didn't get any far and we, so we, he, we couple of clobbers, and on the way he went and we went about our business and the woman thanked me. Well, that was.
Speaker 2:That particular incident was one of the incidences we use for people that were equipment specialists in customs to carry guns. Cause that's where I was, I was all alone going down the backyard in Brooklyn. Well, we did, we did, we did correct it and we found out and we watched the frogman, go down and take it out. And they made a great case in that they did store the drugs there. We the night we put the wire in outcomes. Then the next thing, you know, it revealed that the ship arrived go get the drugs. So they watched them. These guys came, got their frogman uniform, they drove them a block down to the pier, they got out, they went in the water, the two of them out to the cargo ship, underneath by the propeller there's a door and that's where the drugs were. And they made a successful seizure. And that was an interesting one because I only just came to customs about two days before and it was nice to be able to see the smuggling group succeed in that. It was crazy because the guy attacking the woman fortunately, and I'm so happy, I was able to be there at that time and it was just we couldn't believe it. Here is just got here and I'm just going down this, the cellar, walking down the long stairs. Oh, and there it is and everything ended well and they got a good arrest and the woman was pleased and happy and everybody went home.
Speaker 2:That was an unusual one and we had one time putting in the microphone was. This was strange. It was in the East 80s. They got a bug order for a narcotics operation. The DEA got the order and they ran into a little stumbling block. They gave me the order to install the microphone, so the DEA was able to have uh great connections with the phone company and they put the guy's phone out of service. So he had a call for service and so they they established, and I was going to be the service person to put in the mic.
Speaker 2:So I arrived at the apartment I think uh 2l at 80 and the guy and a woman let me in. She was scantily clad and she was a woman let me in, and and I went in there and I'm saying what, where is the? And there is. The guy cut a hole in the ceiling and he's the. He had the second floor apartments besides the first floor and he had the second floor apartments besides the first floor and he had his own stairway going up. And he's up there yelling that he had a terrible back pain that he couldn't come down. Now we have a court order to put a bug in where he is, but he's not there. He's going to be upstairs. I said, oh, what the hell do we do now.
Speaker 2:So I remember backing out and talking to the DEA guy and I said we got to do something about this and he said okay. He said what do we do? So I said I come up with an idea, get me a long wire. So I so I went there and I talked to the girl and oh, she was followed me like anything. She was suspicious. The guy was a known narcotics dealer. I went up the steps and talked to him and said about his, about his back was killing him, and I explained to him. I said listen, I need the phone working. I said okay, I said I'll make sure that you don't have to go down and get it. How about if I give you a long extension? He thought that was great.
Speaker 2:So I took the extension, I installed it downstairs, where the court order said, and I put it on the phone and I gave him a long wire.
Speaker 2:But I didn't touch it then and the girl brought it up to him and brought up the bug up the steps, gave him the bug and we went about and when we got him he got 40 years in jail. That's up there. I remember that. But we didn't violate the order. I installed it in the apartment. The order said I didn't move it, they took the phone and dragged it upstairs. I remember the apartment. The order said I didn't move it, they took the phone and dragged it upstairs. I remember they got me a big long wire and I attached it to the phone for him and he. He wanted to give me a tip and everything for giving him the phone and it was because he was up one flight up. It was amazing when I walked to that apartment saw how this guy in and up went through concrete. Well, he was very, very successful narcotics dealer and they had that spiral staircase coming right down.
Speaker 2:Probably would be good at getting out of prison right with those skills. He got 40 years and he had an unusual name, but I don't want to. He's well-known in the area up there. He's a real bad, bad dealer and that was an interesting one and it was a good one. I enjoyed going up there. He's a real bad, bad dealer. So, and that was an interesting one and it was a good one. I enjoyed going up there. But I remember handing her the phone and and he's thanking me very much and but I wasn't going to give him the phone because that would be a violation of the order. I installed it in the apartment where the order said what she did with it. I didn't know. And she right up the stairs as I was leaving, they give him the phone and then he did all his calls from there. But that phone was installed in the apartment we had the court order for and it was successful. The lawyers liked it and everything.
Speaker 3:As a service tech, as a telephone guy, you really went above and beyond to make sure he could access that phone.
Speaker 2:You never know what you're gonna do. You gotta go, you gotta go above and beyond every case, I'm here from the government.
Speaker 1:I'm here to help you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, he's the nicest phone guy ever but you gotta play, you gotta offer, turn yourself right into that as you do it.
Speaker 2:yeah, you know, you gotta really you gotta take five minutes out to change your attitude and have your attitude one way and not be suspicious looking or look around. You got to be one and that's the way you got to train yourself. It's a little bit of acting, but it was necessary.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that seems just as undercover to me as any of the other undercover type things.
Speaker 2:Yeah it is. It's not just going out and buying drugs and everything like that. Uh, you know, but it was. It was an interesting thing with him and he got 40 years. He was a big drug dealer. I didn't know.
Speaker 2:We had that in case too with with another one up in the bronx where one of the wires where the dea was working it and the wire broke and we had a wire there too and I had to go down a certain yard that had a real, a German shepherd. That was as mean as hell and I knew I could never get into that basement. So I spent about whenever time I went out and I went out for about a week and about six or seven times I would stop by and give him a cold cut, this German shepherd. I told him something to eat, so I'm something to eat all the time, and about six or seven times I would stop by and give him a cold cut, this German check. I told him something to eat, told him something to eat all the time. So then came the time that I had to go in now to see why this wire wasn't working. And so now, with the day that I picked that morning, I did it in the morning, figured it was a safe time. The bad guys are still sleeping.
Speaker 2:I remember going down the stairs to the back and out comes a guy with a machine gun around his, with a around his stomach machine gun, holy shit. So I, I, I I just said a telephone, I'm gonna do my business. And he looked at me and I had all the proper stuff and he went about his business because he didn't care, because he said the dog would. No, the dog saw me and the tail was going a mile a minute breakfast. He couldn't. So the guy was very suspicious. Then I said well, he doesn't, maybe don't like black people, maybe he just likes white people. And he said that must be it. So the dog wouldn't let him in. But the dog let me in, me in, and it was a good case for the DEA to fix that wire and they had. It was called Black Friday. It was a big arrest on their part and that was. I thought that was great, but the dog was unbelievable.
Speaker 2:You know, there was one time before just I should have said that first where I had to go down there to see if it was all right, and I was going down and he wasn't around and so, oh shucks the poor daughter where he is. So I went to do my little thing in the box. Next thing you notice it's my shoulder, there's a paw, and there he is. He come up to say hello to me and I had had his food for him too. I used to buy bologna for him. I one time I gave him turkey. I wanted to get a good roast beef was the day when I went in. I brought roast beef with me and he was my friend. He would stay right with me while I did my wiring in the basement. He protected me.
Speaker 1:You should have brought him filet mignon after the guy with the machine gun. It was such a nice dog.
Speaker 2:I mean, he was ferocious when I first met him and I would have loved to have taken him home but I wouldn't. But he was a nice animal and I wasn't afraid of him. After a while he was just my buddy. He would sit there with me inside the cellar. It was nice to have company. You know, it's just, it was just unbelievable. We had many, many things like that with the with Haida was a big thing when we got Haida. Haida was a high intensity drug trafficking area and they gave us the budget and we set up a special room in in Florida for the monitoring team, which I turned out pretty good Toby, you've been in that room and it was very proud to do that.
Speaker 1:No, that was, that was good, I wonder. I wonder if we can talk about the national hockey league a little bit. Oh sure, the, the, the.
Speaker 1:I know you do. It was my pleasure, like I said before, working with him for a year. It was really really good times. He knew where the good coffee was in the arena, so that made it good. That's very important to me, especially in between periods, you know, when there was a lot of activities.
Speaker 1:But, john, could you explain to the viewers what I talked to Sean O'Connor? He's going to come on and he's going to talk about club management and on that side, and Emilio is going to come on and talk about his experiences with the New Jersey State Police. So we have quite a people. But Sean was the security manager for the Panthers quite a people. But Sean was the security manager for the Panthers.
Speaker 1:Uh, john, like I said, was actually the most senior representative of the National Hockey League assigned to any team. Uh, you know, and that and did it for over 30 years, did it 30 years and, uh, you know Emilio is is here now he's, he's come from New Jersey to Florida, so it was a great fit. Sometimes you go into jobs and you got to know the people. We bonded instantly and last year we had the privilege of the All-Star Game which was held there a special event and went to the finals with the playoffs, so it was a real, real good experience for me personally. So, john, can you explain what the role of the NHL representative is as far as with the National Hockey League?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it would be fun. I was fortunate to get this job when the Panthers was created back in 19,. I forget the date, but it was 30 years ago and the head of it was Dennis Cunningham, who was the head of the NHL security, and he immediately called me up because he knew I was a hockey buff Ever since I was. When I was assigned as a cop in New York. We would go up to Madison Square Garden quite a bit and he called up and I became the hockey rep. The hockey rep was a person responsible for the personnel of the NHL and any kind of trouble or problems they would have or any kind of scandalous thing we would step in. The first team to come down was. I remember the first assignment I had was meeting, uh, like ron niedermeyer, taking him to brian benning's house.
Speaker 2:That was one of the big assignments and they worked in first draft pick yeah, yeah, their first draft pick was rob niedermeyer and and so he was, and we had the rink was the glacier r Pompano, which was an old-time rink, and the Panthers. That was their camp. They got that before they moved to Coral Springs to the ice stand, but they played there for the first couple of years I got to meet. All the Panthers was like an expansion team, so they threw together a lot of players that were over the hill, too young. Some teams didn't want them and they became a great team and knowing them and getting to know them was amazing. They are the greatest bunch of people and they were a little bit wild because they were brand new, but they were wonderful. They all ate together and they all worked together and a lot of little things happened, but we don't want to mention that. We don't want to damage them or let their wives know or anything like that.
Speaker 2:We used to have a lot of. When it started, they had a lot of people following them. They used to have down at the grounds. Women used to come and wait there for them to come out and I would go over. Some of the players liked that, but I would go over and talk to the girl after seeing her a few times and tell her, hey, you don't want to hang out with him, I think he has AIDS. And boom, they'd be gone. The player would come out and look around. I was supposed to meet someone here, john. Oh, I think she left. She didn't want to see anymore. I was just doing that because I got to know them and their families and they were the greatest bunch of guys in the world. And it went on and they did a great thing. Their second year they went all the way to the finals and they lost in the finals.
Speaker 2:But that was a brand new team and got to know their families because everybody moved. I lived in a place in waterside in florida and this had a hot tub, but so the panther players all lived in that area at that time because they would drive to the company, so I would leave the gate open so they can come in if they had to use a hot tub and they go into the hot tub and I'd develop it. But otherwise you have to have passes for the gate and everything like that. And that was with the knowing them and got to know their families. They're the greatest bunch of people in the world and the honest people, and they're unbelievable compared to any sport.
Speaker 2:I was in Major League Baseball for quite a while too, and I still enjoy the hockey players more than anyone, and now I watch them grow. I went to 30 years with them and they changed management last year and it's lucky because they have good people in charge now and he's excellent to run the show and he took my place and I'm happy and I've been at one game so far. I intend to attend some more games.
Speaker 1:What are the responsibilities? I think that's what everybody wants to know.
Speaker 2:Like with the referees, I know them, but you know you were there from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Right, the security was the primary target was the visiting team and the referees that was your ones that you really had to be concerned about. The home team they're at home. They're not going to have many enemies or people that don't like them there. It was the referees who, of course, the referees they wouldn't be. They'd get in trouble, but they wouldn't. They would be hurt. If somebody was like the fans didn't like them, it was a bad call, and then they didn't like the player. If it was a bad call, too, they would get. They would be yelling and screaming at the hey, the ref sucks this. And so that's who you had to watch out for Make sure they arrive safely, make sure they leave safely. They had the referees and the visiting team was on one side, so that's where you devoted most of your attention. The officials, the referees and the officials were a great bunch of people and they, but they were always. No call, always is right. And then the teams that would want to come down and the managers talk to the refs why'd they make that call? But they weren't allowed in the room. If they ever walked into that room without checking with me first, they get a $10,000 fine. So that's how they protect the referee of the National Hockey League. But no one ever did it. And they had one coach that was kind of in Philadelphia that was kind of pushy and get in, but we let him go. And then there was another coach in Toronto. He wanted to challenge me to a fight and I said, nah, I'll get out of here. And so we got along well and it was great to watch these guys. They're the salt of the earth. They're really good people.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed seeing all of them break in the rookies and everything, especially in the beginning where they were a little bit wild because it's Florida, they would unfortunately get involved in strip joints. But everything went out good Today, absolutely 100%. There's less work to do and watch them now. It was really amazing. We had a couple of incidents with them when they were younger and everything worked out perfectly. That was my greatest 30 years working with the NHL. I enjoyed it tremendously and Dennis Cunningham was the tops and it was good. It was great. They were just a nice bunch of people. What a great place to go is down to the rink and have the people there and work and make sure everything is running right. I can't say enough about that. I wish I was still there, but you've got to move on.
Speaker 1:It was a well-oiled machine, John, and everybody knew their jobs. The security people there got along, Even the fans. Occasionally you'd have to talk to them, you know, because they get upset with referees and you know it was a great experience to see behind the scenes and some of the stuff that the players goofing around, you know, especially at the All-Star game, because everybody was loose and everybody had fun. Yeah, that's right, but no.
Speaker 2:And they all played before the game. Remember the warm-ups Soccer.
Speaker 1:Indoor soccer.
Speaker 2:How they warm themselves up. They would play soccer.
Speaker 1:In the hallway, in that little area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they would be really. That's where you saw a different side of them compared to on the ice, and it was really refreshing.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I think the best thing about the NHL is they make them dress and put a coat on and leave. They don't go out in sweats, they get on the visiting team bus and you know coat and tie. You don't see that anymore in professional sports. You know, usually I think hockey is the only sport that still does that you know where they have to show up like that and leave, like that, so and and that. So it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Well, go ahead.
Speaker 2:The fans were interesting too and they and what they the some. We had a fan one time this is worth mentioning in Miami. They were playing in Miami.
Speaker 2:This kid had a palsy thing. He was in his 30s and he always had a guide with him. I always saw him there and he was a nice kid and he told me he got permission one day. He said I felt so bad for him. He was always crumpled up and he said if I could please get him to meet mario lemieux. So, jeepers, I said I don't, I wouldn't, I don't think they allow that. I said but okay, I said, come to practice at the before the game. He did came. He came with his helper and he was out waiting there at practice and lemieux came off the ice from his practice and he gave him a stick and he talked to him.
Speaker 2:Well, this kid was cured, he straightened up and he spoke. Well, I just couldn't believe it. I watched this in complete amazement and he got so overcome with it that he was absolutely didn't have any symptoms whatsoever and Lemieux was so good to him and talked to him and everything. And this kid, they had to take him home. He got so emotional and it was so nice to see the way the hockey players stopped, talked to him and what he did for that five minutes for that kid was the most amazing thing I've ever seen. How he straightened up from this all crawl. He was all punched up like this and errors and he was so happy and he left with a stick signed by Mario and it was, it was. I take my hat off to that man for doing that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, the players are really nice.
Speaker 1:So typical, yes, yes, and the way they talk to the fans and and everything like that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, well, let's leave this on on a great note like that. John, we're going to have you back on the gambling, because I think that that's something that and we'll talk about, now that gambling's been open up to professional sports, what are the drawbacks and what, what we have to be aware of to see which might happen. You know, as far as the betting, as they put the odds on the screen while the game's going on and you wonder if the players will hopefully not get involved in that. But you know, with big money on the table, you never know Like with boxing, it was the same way. You know, with big money on the table, you never know Like with boxing, it was the same way. You know, there's big purses on the table. They bet will there be a draw, knock down in the second round? It's become even the singing of the national anthem how long it'll be. You know and you've pointed that out to me and I'm like I never thought of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the Super Bowl prop bets, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's there and I I hopefully it won't lead to a big scandal, but if it does, it may take down sports as we know it. You know, and I want you to give your opinion on it, because you've been in the sports industry and you've also been in the law enforcement industry, and what your feelings are, and we're going to have an individual who was involved in gambling and went to jail and now talks about it on an upcoming podcast, and I think it would be good.
Speaker 2:The gambling. I've been doing research on it since you told me that would be one of the subjects. The gambling I've been doing research on it since you told me that would be one of the subjects. And what surprised me. I mean I went over to all the things with the CCNY scandal way back in the 50s where it started with basketball. That was one of the big scandals first and then it had other little scandals and other big scandals with the referees after.
Speaker 2:But it's amazing what I discovered in looking at this all the gambling and all the people that the advertisement and the betting comes right across during intermission or they're taking a break now from a period or commercial. There's the gambling bet, this bet, this that's the cheapest. I'm shocked at it. But now you know there's one group who is monitoring the gambling and I told Toby you'll never guess who, he could never guess it. But now you know there's one group who is monitoring the gambling and I told Toby you'll never guess who, he could never guess it and I have the report on it the UN. Can you imagine that the UN is monitoring the betting of the gambling in the United States so that I have prepared, ready to go and tell you what they can do, what they want to do, but I couldn't. I was shocked when I found the UN involved in it. What do you think of that, jeff? Could you think of the UN would ever be involved in monitoring the gambling?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I guess now everyone can gamble on their phones, so it needs to be some sort of like not national, you know oversight, but I mean you could be in any country and gamble on your phone real time. You know oversight, but I mean you could be in any country and gamble on your phone real time, you know. So, yeah, it would have to be something above any one country, I would assume, but I don't know. I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to the, to the information I was shocked myself.
Speaker 2:I was reading like any like, like I was a brand new rookie. I said the UN, I said wait a minute, I just this page is wrong. And sure enough, there it is. I'm reading all what their, what their plan is, what their outline is, and the grant, oh, it's the cheapest. This is amazing. So there's, there's people way in the back there are concerned about. You know, it's one of those things that Houston, houston, we got a problem, we got a problem. You know it's got it's going to. It's going to be terrible scandals down because there's so much money involved in it and I just hope, some sport somebody.
Speaker 1:Let's hope they don't bet on how many teeth players lose on the ice. Yeah, they do, that would be.
Speaker 2:Because when I was doing Major League Baseball, I was doing the AAA teams and things like that, and one of the things that this is many years ago, one of the things that came to me was this one kid came to me one day at the AAA game and he said you know, and he's a pitcher, and but he, he says he, he wants to talk to me. I said what's the matter? He says well, he says this guy here wants to take, give me a car and help me, and we were warned to talk to you if anything. I said well, who was it? What happened is he was a checker in the publics, but he didn't. He didn't earn enough and they want this was an organized crime guy grooming this kid that's going to be an official in baseball. And I told him don't take the car and I've got them.
Speaker 2:I got the, got him away from and he thanked me very much. Just cut your ties with him because he was grooming this kid to be to be part of the control and it's just. You know, I couldn't believe it and how, how they exactly reach back into the minor leagues before he's even a referee or an official in the triple a. So they. So you got to watch anything to get the edge. Anything to get the edge in.
Speaker 1:Well, that'll be a, I'm sure, an interesting. I know it will be. People watch that because it's coming. It's coming and it's like you said, there's going to be the good, bad and the ugly with that.
Speaker 2:So that's, you know that's, that's, that's the way to put it and I hope it, I hope, I hope it don't happen. But too much money is involved, toby. No, I know Too much money is involved in it.
Speaker 1:It's all about the business now.
Speaker 2:It's like the Goodfellas. Remember the Goodfellas. Remember Henry Hill was in jail in Philadelphia and he was jailed with Coon and his brother played for Boston, boston College. Yeah, the scandal up at Northeast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the scandal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was part of Goodfellas Shaving. He was able to convince them. He was able to convince three players. You're not going to make the NBA Take this $10,000. Just shave the point. Don't lose the game. And that was a big thing, that was a part of Goodfellas the movie. That was a big thing, that was a part of Goodfellas the movie, and that's all I'm trying to tell them here. Just don't lose, you're not going to hurt the school. Just take the money. And they took the money and they got arrested for that and they cooned and I forget the other kid's name, and so that's what the deal is. You can make an astronomical amount of money and still not lose. Just shave that.
Speaker 2:For me, it's the line that counts. What is the line? It's not who wins or loses, it's the spread, that's it. It's not who wins or loses anymore, it's the spread, and that's what controls all gambling. Now, if you want to know, I usually bet. I bet you this, wins, that wins. I bet you dollar here. Now, it's the spread that counts. What is the spread? Oh, I'm sorry, I jumped off the subject no, no, no, no, no, that's.
Speaker 1:That is the subject we're foreshadowing, we're going to get to the next one with that, but I wanted to thank you and uh you know, and uh pleasure for coming on and uh your perspectives on the technology and your career, which, uh, you know, is uh tremendous, and uh also the gambling, and uh talking about that briefly today and in a future show and uh, you know, I I don't have anything else, jeff, are you?
Speaker 3:No, I think this was a great session and I'm looking forward to the next one. It's great meeting you, John.